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Real issue is no place for kids

Re: Real issue is no place for kids

Postby 14x » May 17th, 2017, 2:43 pm

I don't have a dog in this fight but...I like all the ideas coming out. Tj isn't too far off with his proposed class, of course the initial build will be more but look at the cost of maintaining..not much there unless sled is crashed a lot. Marti is also on the rite track with holding hands on workshops for parents and kids.. whatever outcome kids are the future and need to be catered to, added money to a kid is alright but that trophy that's 2 feet taller than them is much more prestigious.. I hope something good comes from this!
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Re: Real issue is no place for kids

Postby Spy-Guy 74 » May 17th, 2017, 5:08 pm

List of Mid-Western Drivers that raced F-500 and moved to Champ 440

Jordan Wahl
Blaine Stephenson
Ryan Murkowski
Gavin Bihner
Jay Mittelstaed

Next year I believe Jerry Brickner and Brandon Grendzinski will both be moving up to Champ and started in the F-500 classes.

Tanner and Tyler Lyberg both raced F-500 and will race in Pro-Lite class one more year, but I do believe they plan to race Champ sleds after that. Tyler Metz is going to race Pro-Lite again next year, but I believe he wants to race Champ in the future too. I know there's racers out east that have moved to champ also, but I'm not as familar with them. John would know those drivers.

Shane Peterson raced Champ sleds ten to twelve years ago, left and came back to race F-500 sleds. He will race the TLR schedule next winter on a Champ sled too. So there has been drivers that have moved up from the class.
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Re: Real issue is no place for kids

Postby FmrCrew » May 17th, 2017, 5:55 pm

Darcy I agree that the F500 class works for some, BUT not for a 8-14 year old kids!!! the sled weights 430 lbs? the kid weights 80 there is no way they can RACE that sled, and the proof is in the entries, not many! I am concerned about the kids getting out of kitty cats if you go back and read my posts...where does a 8-10 year old kid go and race ovals?

Darcy please look at the names that have moved up from F500 I count 3. yes 3 out of average entries of 15, because Bihner does not race champ, and Mittlelsted once a while at best, I watch Jordon race a JR F500 in 2012 at ER against 3 drivers in Jrs, he crashed got back up with out a red and almost won! He stayed in it 1 year...Jordon is the only one who has won in Champ racing too date.

So ask yourself Darcy if you have a 9 year old kid (75 lbs) you want him on a F500 or a Polaris Lites chassis with proper shocks and suspension. weighing 325 lbs...with a 370 fan motor..

I am not trashing F500 but it is not a feeder class for young kids. Thats my point...Lets meet for lunch, as I am out anyways, and I will buy!

TJ
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Re: Real issue is no place for kids

Postby HRA motorsports » May 17th, 2017, 6:48 pm

the class you describe that you are promoting is junior 1 if im not mistaken. ok so you made the bones of the sled out of a indy lite. the rest of it is custom. what is the difference at that point. Its the same as an old wahl trailing arm champ sled except for the stock location chaincase. the weight is the same. junior 1 is minimum 325. you added a carb restricter to slow them down. ok so add the carb restricter to junior 1 to slow them down if that what the goal is. instead of scrapping the entire junior program and making people buy new "cheaper" equipment add the restrictor to them and lets move on. Your comments about data sound like they are uninformed about it. Data is one of the most cost saving tools there is, it doesnt cost a million dollars.It will save you on tuning components, fuel, wear and tear on your machine, and best of all time. It is a tool nothing more, just like a carbide sharpener. It will pay for itself many times over and the people using it will LEARN and get faster with less cost and they may actually be good enough that they dont loose interest in the sport. A used data system can be picked up anywhere from 200 to 350 and are readily available due to the popularity of them in kart racing. a new mychron 5 can be had for 500. All you really want to see is pipe temp rpm and jackshaft speed. The data systems are easy to use and to read. Anybody that has basic computer skills can work them. tuning a cvt clutch system with 2 stroke power band you might as well be shooting guns with a blind fold on. yeah you might hear when you hit your target a few times but its going to take a lot of bullets and time to figure it out with much consistency and most people will lose interest before that ever happens, which is the exact problem you want to fix. Yeah sure maybe you have one of those old timers in your back pocket that have spent the time and money to do it by "the feel of your pants" but they are few and far between and i would make a bet that even those long time tuners would even be better with data.
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Re: Real issue is no place for kids

Postby Mr.Pipe » May 17th, 2017, 6:50 pm

TJ, for my 9 year old, I'd like:
"in order of priority"

-A class where the speed did not exceed 55mph
-A very light sled that he could handle, without it driving him...320 lbs or less would be nice.
-A class that I could afford to build a sled for him (under your proposed rules, i'm out of my budget)
-A class that is affordable enough that it gets good entry numbers at every race....like F500
....low cost = good number of racers.

I look at things like "making stock parts work well" as an engineering challenge. Having to buy the latest high dollar parts to be competitive with daddy big bucks is frustration without challenge, and does nothing to develop future racers.

With regard to data loggers, we still disagree as well. My son loves to learn, and asks tech questions about what I'm looking at...a Champ data log, or a dyno sheet. I think that a very simple "spec" data logger should be part of the rules, as it will always play a big part in future racing.
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Re: Real issue is no place for kids

Postby ryan54911 » May 17th, 2017, 9:12 pm

I have been following this really close. I have a 14 almost 15 year old son. He can ride the hell out of a sled. We went to the ironwood , derby, 525 and tomahawk race. We want to buy or build a race sled. Don't want to spend 10 thousand dollars. F500 maybe a little much for him. Please keep it a starter class or a class for kids that haven't raced kitty cats easy to get into. Alot of kids or adults who didn't race kitty cats may need a class like this. Please make it easy and fun for people who haven't raced before can get into. I have raced go karts, and cars for alot of years, restored sleds and worked on race sleds . Please make the age a little more as some kids don't get bulked up until 16 or 17. Very interested and been following this post daily. Want to build one . He wasn't really interested in racing sleds till this year. Not saying gonna be a champ racer in the future but you never know. Look at most go karts with a up lifted age stock or clone classes the biggest. With race cars sometimes the 4 cylinder class or street stocks have the most. Not classes I wanna watch but all pay the same to get in and generate money for other classes. Like the speeds posted in other replies for beginners or people moving up
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Re: Real issue is no place for kids

Postby jhooper/HRE » May 18th, 2017, 8:04 am

TJ,
I was not being personal, just stating facts! Nobody is better at stretching things than you.
I certainly was not stretching anything, I sell complete sets of clutches to racers and they do cost OVER $2,000.
Try ordering a new set of fox shocks valved by an expert and you will pay OVER $700 a pair.
Why do we need to add all this expense?? It won't improve the racing.
I have also been involved in various forms of racing for over 40 years and that is why I know snowmobile ice oval racing is very different than karts or auto racing.
There is little doubt that IF you had anything to brag about in your snowmobile racing career you would have already written it on here.
Now that was personal!
John H.
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Re: Real issue is no place for kids

Postby mdmill2x » May 18th, 2017, 12:02 pm

For those that haven't raced in the youth classes but want a lighter weight sled that is very cost effective and easy to setup, I recommend watching the Stock and IS 200 classes this winter. I am not sure of the weight but I would be shocked if the sleds weigh more than 250 lbs. The Stock200 class is VERY easy to setup - add a few studs to the track, add a rear tunnel enclosure kit that you can fabricate yourself or buy from a company like Recreational Motorsports, add carbides ( that someone will help you sharpen ), and add a slide luber ( which you can put together yourself or purchase a kit to add it ). I can provide an electric luber setup that runs off the lighting coil and is very cheap if you don't want to tap into the crankcase or breather for a pulse based luber pump ( typically a mikuni pump ). The sled will go about 30 MPH as shipped from the factory with a 130 lb person so should go a bit faster with a junior racer. When you are ready to go faster get the GYT motor upgrade kit and bolt it on, make some additional, cheap, easy to do, modifications to the chassis ( tie suspension down, modify seat to lower it, shorten steering post, add track clips ) and you are set to go a bit faster. The youth groups have already embraced this class and have sleds ordered. The cost of a machine is less than $4500 if I remember correctly.

The intent of the Stock200 class is to get those that AREN'T racers to try oval racing by making is very cheap and easy to setup one for racing.

Some have opinions that the new 200 sled is a POS. I think we need to give it time to see. I am sure some thought the F500 class was a POS when it was first proposed too.

I believe Data Acq is mandatory to accelerate the learning curve and lower your frustration and 'spare parts/tuning components' cost. If your desire is to develop a field of drivers and mechanics that will move up to Champ they MUST know how to use Data Acq, so teach them early.

If the 200 class is a success we won't need the intermediate class that is being discussed. My daughters both started driving Jr Stock ( Jr Novice at the time, same class, different name ) sleds at 10 years old and drove Jr 1, Jr2 Sprint, Jr F500, etc and moved through the classes as they progressed. We never had intentions of Champ racing but Sara competed in the next class lower for two years -Pro Lite.

Entering F500 classes ( starting with Jr then Jr + Sport, eventually doing every class they were eligible for ) was the best thing I did for my kids. When we entered the Junior classes the participation level was very low and no one was doing Jr F500 so we started with Jr 1 Sprint. Only had two or three entries each weekend. So if you started up front, ran up front, and won alot you did not learn valueable lessons like: Passing, snow dust, patience, etc. In F500 main class you are starting with 10 drivers and you learn FAST. Sara started racing F500 at age 13 and by the end of the year she was 14 was running in every F500 class and making the F500 ( Pro or top class ) finals.

I would like to see the discussion continue but with a bit more civility.

Marti Miller
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Re: Real issue is no place for kids

Postby Mr.Pipe » May 18th, 2017, 6:19 pm

Marti,

Have the rules for the 200 class been drawn up already? Are they posted anywhere? Was anyone able to get their hands on one of the prototype sleds to help with forming suitable rules for the sled?
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Re: Real issue is no place for kids

Postby mdmill2x » May 18th, 2017, 7:04 pm

Todd brought a Yamaha 200 to the Youth ISR Rules meeting held last Saturday. Everyone had a lot of time to look it over, turn it over, etc. A representative from Yamaha attended the meeting. Scott Minzenmeyer from Recreational Motorsports also attended the meeting and had pictures of the internals ( like the chain case and clutches ) to look at. Scott had a lot of knowledge about the sleds. The rules were drafted and agreed to at the meeting. Rough draft of the rules will be shown to the meeting attendees before they become 'official' rules for the class. I am not sure when ISR will be ready to post the rules. I know most of them from memory but don't want to put anything out on this forum. Call me if you want to discuss further. 612-860-0576.

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