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Champ 440: Combined Weight Rule-or not?

Champ 440: Combined Weight Rule-or not?

Postby CoryEwingdeactivated » May 11th, 2007, 10:33 am

Shaun-

I think Jacques was more or less agreeing with what you wrote. The lighter guy now has to handle a heavier machine. Jacques was also making the point that he is getting older and now you want him to try to handle something heavier. There is going to be more equipment pieces on the track.

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Champ 440: Combined Weight Rule-or not?

Postby TDC » May 11th, 2007, 11:54 am

I really hope you give it another shot Shaun. Don't get hung up on the rule if you really want to race, time flies and things change. Say hi to the old man.:p
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Champ 440: Combined Weight Rule-or not?

Postby ice_racer_440 » May 12th, 2007, 4:52 am

I will do that TDC. I'm not really going to let it stop me from racing. But it just makes me think a little. Its more of a commit to racing again get a race trailer back and get a sled and come up with the $$$ to do it all. I really miss it.
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Champ 440: Combined Weight Rule-or not?

Postby racingphysics » May 12th, 2007, 11:51 am

Dose any one here understand physics? Or dose most everyone here believe they don't exsist on the race track or in racing. Lot of people here are showing no real reasoning for being opposed to the weight rule. Its not rocket science.... And who ever thinks that it is going to cost the racer alot more money to race because of it is nuts.
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Champ 440: Combined Weight Rule-or not?

Postby racingphysics » May 12th, 2007, 12:33 pm

Ice racer 440 your a good racer and I think your just as fast at some of the top guys out there If you had some well engineered equipment and yes racing is very expensive. But your reasoning for the weight and making you think twice about racing is silly. You would still be lighter than Dustin Wahl even with the rule. And has any one heard of more cooling, maybe a little thicker metal here or there to make some components more durable,or how bout more lube to add a little weight. Those are all not bad things.
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Champ 440: Combined Weight Rule-or not?

Postby AHF928 » May 12th, 2007, 2:05 pm

I hope your kidding about physics. Lets just say I have a more than passing knowledge of the subject (engineering degree cough)I can show you how this rule makes no sense whatsover using physics.

The calculations will prove that up to a much higher weight than we are talking about ( the driver differential would need to be more than 300 pounds to matter and the minimum driver would be about 120 lbs at that) that there is NO benefit to a smaller driver taking a full lap.

The only benefit is straight line acceleration and deceleration. Vector forces during corners are a funtion of velocity and weight with actual traction (g forces) as a mitigating factor.

The perfect situation is a movable center of gravity (driver)that is exactly the correct height/weight for the speed/traction available.

Because the formula has many variables you would need to have some constants to see whats best and it would only be the best for THAT sled at THAT speed with the exact traction at THAT specific time.

I'm sure that we could come up with an X value for the strength/weight of all drivers, but it would take more brain power than I want to spend on it.

In short the weight alone of a driver is no way to determine if an oval racer has an advantage. A drivers weight, arm length, upper body mass vs lower body mass, upper torso length, arm strength as well as sled traction on acceleration and cornering all need to be used.
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Champ 440: Combined Weight Rule-or not?

Postby racingphysics » May 12th, 2007, 4:04 pm

Haha I am! But i do to have an enginering degree too. They don't mean anything. Why don't we talk about normal force and mass times gravity to while were at it, hell lets throw in the coifficent of friction to. Anyways Its like some of these people think that if they wieght less and have a heavier sled their going to be slower vs some one who wieghts more with a lighter sled, Dah!, combine weight makes everone equal(your all moving the same weight, mybe AHF928 wants to calculate mass, kidding), minus guys that are already over the combinded weight like dustin wahl will be. And yes I do agree the only benefit will be stright line accel and decel. Vector forces do not need apply to this besides examples of such quantities include distance, displacement, speed, velocity, acceleration, force, mass, momentum, energy, work, power, etc. All these quantities can by divided into two categories - vectors and scalars. Thats to much crap! AHF928 I agree with you. But it dosen't seem that others can see that their not at a disadvantage. Dustin gets his ass around the track fast and he's moving alot of weight 600+lbs and her can't even put it were he wants it ( ooooh to the leftside the the middle.
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Champ 440: Combined Weight Rule-or not?

Postby Flatout » May 13th, 2007, 4:01 am

Physics is always going to be the determining factor only if all the variables are put into the equasion. If it were a simple drag race where there are constants ie engine output, clutch efficiency total mass (driver and sled combined), coeficient of traction, and these were the only components then it makes sense to have a combined weight. Put in a turn and there are another couple of variables that come into play. The centre of gravity is shifted greatly by the weight of the driver. A heavy driver can shift the CG further to the left making for a more stable sled at higher speeds. The lighter driver cannot shift the CG as much and thus is at a disadvantage. Then there is the human factor. A big and usually stronger driver has the muscle power to control a sled. Forcing a smaller driver to muscle a heavier sled doubles the disavantage. You don't require an engineering degree to figure out that the physics of oval racing favour the heavier driver with a combined weight rule in place!
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Champ 440: Combined Weight Rule-or not?

Postby racingphysics » May 13th, 2007, 7:09 am

Flatout I agree with to a certain extent. I guess with a certain degree here were going to get a little technical(but try to keep it simple). I'll give you that yes in a simple world and with basic thinking that a heavier driver would have some of an advantage. But In that case If we wanted to lets see how many G's everyone in champ is going around a corner. Do you think that we can't get a little guy like PJ and a bigger guy like Dustin to pull the same or apply the same amount of force(torque)to the ground under lateral acceleration. Like AH928,said "The perfect situation is a movable center of gravity (driver)that is exactly the correct height/weight for the speed/traction available." But also how hard is the driver going in, what's his front end set up like, springs, valving, shock angle,carbides, all of these play effect on how the drivers center of gravity shifts his forces(Torque)applied threw the sled. I've seen it time and time again at M.T.S on test stands for nascar figuring out roll center and force applied to each corner. You can make a 145lb driver apply the same amount of force anywhere on a chassis as a 245 driver. Now I'm not saying anything bout people getting test stands and all that bla bla and trying that but it is possible, test, test, test! Lateral acceleration is not hard to manipulate in snowmobile racing. And apparently you need a engineering degree to understand contributing variables and look out side the box. Its a lot more than just the drivers weight. You don't think that people in other forms of racing don't figure this******out. Please.
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Champ 440: Combined Weight Rule-or not?

Postby racingphysics » May 13th, 2007, 7:22 am

And also center of Gravity isn't hard to manipulate the amount of force applied between a 150 pound driver and 200 pound driver leaning off a sled is a matter of leaning over roughly 4 inches farther to get the same. Combine weight is not an advantage or disadvantage. I will say though they should have never put the champ sled weight at 375 it should have stayed at 350 and make the combined weight rule 550. If that was the case I bet not anyone would be complaining. But 575 its not the end of the world. All these guys a plenty capable in champ to get a good setup worked out.
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