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things to think about !

things to think about !

Postby mbenoy119 » March 8th, 2012, 8:30 am

I think that was tried in the past with bad results. Someone else with some history will have to chime in, but I do recall it coming up in a discussion at some time
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Postby Petawawarace » March 8th, 2012, 10:07 am

I recall someone saying if it doesn't freeze right away, it does when it hits the goggles or shield and makes it worse.
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Postby that 31 car » March 8th, 2012, 11:02 am

Motorman:
Thanks for the lead, I'll check that out. Sounds like you are right, I forgot about the letter stock days.

Greg: Yes you are right on Johnson and Arpin. Arpin was definitely 16 when he ran the Derby, replacing a injured driver, might even have been a strong 15, if you know what I mean. Lot of political pressure on that deal as I recall.

Mist of water deal, never misted one but did pull a carpet behind the broom that was liberally wetted to settle the dust. Met with bad results, misting and freezing on goggles and shields made visibility worse that the dust. Was a long time back, so modern methods could change things, but I'm still a little scared of that method.
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Postby tuner78 » March 8th, 2012, 11:13 am

Makes sence that it may be a problem if it doesn't freeze right away. I was told once that the broom itself, if the proper amount of speed and pressure were to be applied could generate enough friction to cause a "glazing" of the surface. Anyone else ever experience this?
WINNERS:
Show up prepared
Are never intimidated
Don't give up
Are professional
Keep the faith

[b]Team Behn Racing[/b]Tuner78
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Postby Petawawarace » March 8th, 2012, 11:34 am

I think the broom sweeping off of the track before a race is a huge help and should be done at all the tracks if it is possible. I don't think brooms by them self are enough. I can't speak for some of the tracks out west, but as far as Eganville and Valcourt go, they sweep the tracks off, and there is vitually no snow left on the surface, just "fresh" ice. Yet on the first lap of a final, there is still a blinding curtain of snow-dust.
I think what gets under estimated is how much ice a champ sleds chews up in one lap. I bet on a cold day in Valcourt, a full final of Champ sleds would generate a dump-truck load of snow-dust in a single lap!!! ONE LAP. We need to find a way to reduce how much snow-dust is actually created in the first place.
I don't think the last accident in BJ was caused by snow-dust, but it looks like it may have contributed to some extra sleds involved in the accident because they could not see what was going on ahead of them...I know that when the dust is that bad, you literally cannot see 10 feet in front of you.
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Postby that 31 car » March 8th, 2012, 3:38 pm

I am going to approach Dick Gokey of ISR to see if he can contact the right folks for advice on this. Dick has an associate at Michigan Tech that has done tremendous work with snow, things like taking regular snow and after several procedures, both mechanical and possibly chemical, has developed density enough to make runways for airplanes, and I don't mean bush planes either. Although this persons expertise is in snow, he certainly may well have opinions on how to curtail snowdust as a byproduct of "agitated" ice. Will keep you posted.
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Postby that 31 car » March 8th, 2012, 3:55 pm

78-I too have been aware of "burnishing" ice with a broom. Back a number of years ago Jerry McMullen and I played with the concept with a broom USSA used to own. Has possibilities, but our equipment was not designed to do the job. We had a 2000 cc Ford 4 cylinder powering a 6 foot broom. You needed big broom speed and lots of down pressure, you could as you say, burnish or heat the surface enough to glaze the ice.
Problem one: takes big power, we needed either diesel power or well planned hydraulics. (our broom was gear drive mechanical, not hydro)
Problem two. Down pressure, we just didn't have enough weight to be consistent.
Problem three: life span of finished product, ice only lasted a lap or two more than just brooming alone before it started to dust again.

I am not a expert by any means but this deal has been around since we went from snow tracks to ice. Dust itself in my mind is a product of not only ice being eroded, but temperature, wind, barometric pressure, and a whole raft of other unknowns. Super cold in Escanaba years back, but hardly any dust, figured it was due to proximity to the lake. DON'T REALLY KNOW? Any degree'd guys out there who can help out us seat of the pants guys , please do. Any advice will be considered.
This year at Eagle Friday night, cold, yes but we have seen lower temps, had a wind, but it didn't seem to carry anything, and in my mind we had some of the worst visibility we have ever had at Eagle. some guys say being night helps, I don't know, last time I personally raced at night, was in the 70's, and I didn't go fast enough by today's standards to have issues. We need input from some current drivers.
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Postby proracer » March 8th, 2012, 3:56 pm

i there, i'll tell you why we are making snowdust. Studs are to long (to much bite) that automaticly making to much speed and mud flap then are making to much dust, cause snow coming from the track stud hit's it and become more like dust. i ran practice lap in early january ****out snowflap and they say that did not make snowdust. And another thing >Time of day for final. You should never have a final pass 3pm, cause when sun is there, we are often making guest call, cause when you follow somedy close (like it happen to me this past weekend in eganville(no fault from eagnville track people cause it was freshly clean and we make fresh new dust and that still make a problem when you follow that close with the sun in your face, that saturday the final was at 4.15pm way to late, let do like ER 3pm.
Back at shorter stud, automaticly slower cause you can't hook, so slower, more spectacular and less dangerous.

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Postby HRA motorsports » March 9th, 2012, 11:53 am

As far as some tracks that have more snow dust than others. It might be the difference in water quality, as far as the minerals and stuff in it. I was talking to a friend a couple years ago who works for a water conditioning company. He had asked me about the water used to lay the tracks and how it was done and such, I dont know a thing about it. He got to talking about how their company makes the filtering equipment for the spot free rinses at car washes. In doing so they also got themselves into making filtering equipment for laying hockey rinks. To get a nice hockey rink that holds up and has super hard ice you want the water filtered so its like the spot free rinse water. Not saying that this is at all a solution to the problem just trying to answer the question that that31car brought up. I think one thing I know i would like to see from a driver stand point is have the corner workers have yellow flags that have a black outline around them or an x through them.Yellow road signs have a black outline around them so they a more noticeable. It would also be nice if they were on a longer stick to get them out by the racing surface. Sometimes the corner man is 10 to 15 feet away from the track and is in a snowbank. After all when the dust is thick the yellow flag is the first sign of danger before we can see it.
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Postby Lava » March 10th, 2012, 7:17 pm

This may sound dumb-ish...
How about if one of those jet dryers they use in NASCAR were used? Not nessesarily to blow straight down & cause a lot of melting, but blown outward to melt/evaporate the fine snow dust? Then again I'm not sure how readily available those are either. Just a thought...
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