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Growing the Champ class

Re: Growing the Champ class

Postby tp176 » March 24th, 2015, 5:45 am

Deja vu all over again!

The Factory 600 class was doomed as soon as the stock pipe rule and rev limiter was altered. Bullsh%#! you cant fit the pipe in the chassis.

Champ does need changes, no question. Very simply, you may not be able to change the rules but you can abondon the class at any time!

TJ, no doubt that the best will rise to the top but I can assure you that there are some very capable tuners and owners that would get back in with reduced costs.

We have beat the spec fuel rule to death and without a good business proposition to a major fuel company that gives them some ROI it is a tough sell as well as a logistical nightmare.

History is doomed to repeat itself if we don't study it - MUCH of the discussion is a cut and paste of the past.

Jerry?

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Re: Growing the Champ class

Postby HRA motorsports » March 24th, 2015, 7:01 am

Would the 600s still be faster than than a champ 440 if they were using minimum track length of 116, no belt drives, and no carbon or titanium?
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Re: Growing the Champ class

Postby fast dad » March 24th, 2015, 7:13 am

Just in case some people missed who won the TRL Cup this year Cardell Potter: 2007-08 Wahl Chassis, stock Fox shocks (no remote adjusters) Older Rotax built by Larry Rugland, old style Wahl hood....Yes he had a spare sled but he did not like it at all and never rode it...I would bet there are some Jrs riders out there who have newer sleds!!

I don't know how you can race much more cost effective than they did as a family...They won because they worked hard and found something out that made his sled handle better than everyone else's...Cardell rode his butt off every week most times starting mid pack and passing all the leaders...ERWC starting back row!!

How do you get to go racing any cheaper than with a 2007-8 sled and win the TRL Cup....they worked the hardest and the best this year, not a money deal...Hard Work...

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Re: Growing the Champ class

Postby jhooper/HRE » March 24th, 2015, 7:44 am

I have always felt it is best to just focus on the items we CAN change. Some of you have great ideas BUT they are not things we can do anything about so why WASTE TIME discussing them
Examples:
#1- more purse money {we are really lucky to have what we have now}
#2- more experienced tuners {this only comes with experience}
#3- stock engines in a premier class { spectators and promoters certainly don't want this and most of your better tuners would rather go ice fishing}
The intelligent thing to do is take a written survey of F-500 racers and see what changes would encourage them to make the jump to Champ or the V-Force pro-lite series, then we have REAL answers.
I tried to do this last year but Todd A. from ISR said he wanted to handle it {nothing happened}
I will contact USSA and CPT to get a mailing list of pro F-500 drivers.
I think a multiple choice questionnaire of possible REALISTIC changes would be best.
These are the questions I would ask:
#1- Would you be more likely to move up to Champ if there was an "option B" chassis that would be several thousands of dollars cheaper but about the same speed because of slightly larger carbs allowed?
#2- What is the biggest obstacle keeping you from moving into Champ?
please number these options in order of importance to you:
A- Chassis expense
B- Engine expenses
C- Lack of driving experience
D- Lack of engine tuning knowledge
E- Lack of chassis tuning knowledge
F- Lack of clutch tuning knowledge
G- Traveling expenses
H- Not enough crew help
I- Champ is just too fast for me
J- Entry fee expenses
K- Disposable expensive tracks that may not even last 1 season
L- Titanium studs that cost 8-10 times more than steel and are less durable.

I would like suggestions for additions to this list. John H
Last edited by jhooper/HRE on March 24th, 2015, 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Growing the Champ class

Postby jhooper/HRE » March 24th, 2015, 8:23 am

TJ,
You have stated {aprox 100 times} on here something like "the teams that work the hardest always win, it's not about the expensive equipment".
Most of us {including me} agree with this statement BUT you seem to forget that it really does not matter who wins if there is nobody left to race against.
The simple fact is that less expensive equipment makes our sport more accessible to MORE racers.
Less expensive sleds will not change who wins it will just make better racing because MORE guys will have competitive equipment.
I realize this is the "premier class" and we need to be careful not to take way from the spectator appeal by slowing them down much or quieting them too much but as a few others have stated "titanium studs and carbon fibre rotating parts do NOT add to the show".
I know these items are not mandatory for winning BUT when a potential Champ racer looks at the equipment most front runners are using it's quite discouraging if they don't have really deep pockets. Items such as a "DISPOSABLE" soft rubber track that cost $3k-$4k when fully loaded with titanium studs and carbon fibre backers are just STUPID in a sport like ours that will NEVER have a full field of well funded teams. John H.
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Re: Growing the Champ class

Postby fast dad » March 24th, 2015, 10:41 am

Yes John I have over stated the hard work, because if you move up it is harder...last year all the talk was about weight, no one could be competitive with light riders light weight sleds...we need to add weight to equal the racers so it was fair! Maybe I need to be more clear about working hard and the need for tuners: If your clutching is off .3 tenths either light or heavy you are not competitive in champ. Your weight profile is important. Where you grind your weight is important. Your belt ends to be exact length, width, compound, allowing for torque in settings...your cam may need one thing for cornering and another degree for hole shot. Your jetting ends to be spot on or you are not fast... I did state that Cardell Potter won because of how well he handled, he was not the fastest but handles the best....I think it showed that a heavier sled and driver means less than how well the sled is tuned with TENTHS of a gram or profile than 25-40 lbs heavier....you talk about people not wanting to move up to champ, I just asks the person who won the Champ Lites if he was moving up, his comment was " champ is not for them". He has a sled that is maybe only 5-10 hp less and in all right should be able to race against Champ riders, he is talented enough for sure, but chooses not to...so if he has the 4000 track and 2000 cf hood and would he be competitive?Does that make the difference from winning and losing? That's my point....

I hear what you are saying and understand the issue, but there is not clear fix. Plan B seems close to VFCL class... Having 15-18 good Champ sleds every weekend is not a bad thing. I thinks ERWC had 25 or so entries and some good sleds did not make the final!!! Will the show be better with 25 Champs with 10-12 sleds having a chance to win?

Right now there is one motor builder that has hit on something that works, no different that when John won ERWC with Moyle and PJ...Rugland was the Polaris motor to have ...There will be another builder that will find something that works better than today's motors...someone has to go out and work for it, I know I used that word but it is relevant to this...

Here is a perfect example: the 33 team 4-5 years ago had a semi and mike Houle for a tuner and sled builder, it took them 3-4 years to get competitive where they are today...I am sure they spent the same money 5 years ago and they where happy to make the final! You can not move up to champ and expect to be winning or competitive right away!!!! Most racers do not want to run in the back and learn when they can run a easier class and win....

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Re: Growing the Champ class

Postby jhooper/HRE » March 24th, 2015, 12:22 pm

TJ,
I guess the biggest difference in our opinions is that you are looking at the top half of the Champ teams and I am looking at how to grow the bottom half.
We both know that most really competitive teams do not need help with rule changes, they will usually continue to race no matter what the rules say.
The challenge is how do we get more competitors to "fill in the field" at a lot of events?
The Dec. Beasejour race had 5 Champs and the March race was not a lot better.
Eagle river and the TLR events do have just enough sleds to put on a great show but most other events are struggling.
I realize not everyone has the ability or desire to race a Champ but our sport is so dangerously close to extinction that we need to do all we can to encourage participation and adding thousands of dollars in expenses that do not add to the show makes absolutely no sense.
I am still pissed about last years isr vote to keep titanium studs, I have not yet talked to a single Champ team that thinks ti. studs should be allowed,{including a couple teams that use them} the voting members obviously just wanted to show Woody's their appreciation at the EXPENSE OF THE RACERS. They should be ashamed! John H.
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Re: Growing the Champ class

Postby Spy-Guy 74 » March 24th, 2015, 1:31 pm

Truthfully there isn't really any easy answers or direction to make champ class grow over night. In most cases a new champ driver comes up from a lower class of oval racing. Sure way back in the start you'd maybe see a guy like Jeremy Johnston appear and sort of came in cold turkey and excelled. Those days I think are sort of gone, and remember Jeremy had one of those super tuners in his trailer. That does help

Even I'm thinking of having a champ sled again, why do you ask because it's the elite class in oval ice racing. The shear excitement it creates is something I sort of miss and the extremely high level of competition it has. Is it an easy task, no for sure because we'd be a low budget team for sure with today's standards. Would a guy win out of the shoot, no you wouldn't but I guess trying would be a lot more fun than simply not giving it a try once more. I love all forms of racing, but truthfully nothing gives me the pure excitement of a champ final.

It would be nice to come up with something that would make the field of drivers grow in the future. Each year we seem to have this very same discussion but nothing really comes from it or so it seems to me. We all have a love for the sport for sure, but really can't get the dots connected to have a fix. I would like to thank Tommy for the TLR Cup Series, without him I'm not sure if we would be even having this discussion
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Re: Growing the Champ class

Postby Petawawarace » March 24th, 2015, 1:34 pm

You guys are both spot on. The Champ racing the last few years has been incredibly competitive. Not just for the win, but the whole field for the most part.

But, John is right, there needs to be a deeper field of champ teams. When we used to race the CASCAR series at our local track, there were 20-25 regulars every week. Then when the Super Series came to town, all the locals tried to make the field. The heat races were great, as everyone had to fight tooth and nail to get into the final. If you could get to that point with the TLR series it would be fantastic.

One major cost to Champ racing is the travel. I'm assuming that Beausejours numbers are low because of the distance. Roberval here in the east has the same problem. If you can reduce the cost of the sleds, I think there will be an increase in entries.

The Ti studs, carbon backers, and 106" tracks are all ridiculous. They need to be eliminated. Same with the Ti bolts, Jackshafts, and Magnesium parts. I would suggest rules that state WHAT you can use on the sled. Ex: Your allowed to use Steel, Aluminum, Brass/Bronze, Copper, Rubber, Plastic, Fiberglass etc. I would say that Belts, Hoods and Clutch Guards may use Carbon and Kevlar. Implementing the rules in one year is not the way to go about it, but rather give everyone a heads up that in 1 year (or 2 years etc) the new rules will be enforced.
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Re: Growing the Champ class

Postby fast dad » March 24th, 2015, 4:51 pm

I think that John has made a good class for people to learn...It is the people who need to step up from the VF series!! If they attend any TRL Cup race they can race in Pro Champ for free!!!! There is no entry fee...I for world of me don't know why they would not race BOTH classes...You can learn so much by racing the best every time you can..No one is expecting them to be competitive but they will still learn: Hole Shots, handling, clutching for longer heats, belts,jetting, shocks everything needed to progress and it is all for minimal costs!!! Your costs are already incurred, travel to track, hotels, gas, food would be no different than if you ran VF series only...I would bet that it would increase the learning curve by years....The motor is stock, should last the weekend with no issue, then maybe rings?? If you get to tired then you know you need to get in better shape, and what makes you in better shape then doing what you plan on doing, reps and more reps.....I know if I where wanting to race Pro Champ and I was racing the VF Lites Series I would race Pro Champ every week!!! Thats how you learn...Laps and MORE LAPS...

This is where you can get your field fillers and make it a 20 sled show...

I noticed last year at ERWC very few Pro Lites or semi pros raced tried to race in the WC...If anyone watched the heat races, semi finals, you could see where if someone was just running good had a chance to race in the ERWC race...One guy put in the hay bales, pulled it out and still made in threw the semi to the WC...


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