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observation

Re: observation

Postby Flatout » January 22nd, 2016, 9:00 am

John you are missing the point.... no rules except width and the amount of fuel. The smart and innovative teams will quickly find a 600 or bigger motor or a 440 with big carbs will not go the distance and the driver will need to go 30 laps so heavy sleds will tire the driver. Fuel additives with oxygen require richer mixtures so again won't make the distance.
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Re: observation

Postby RacinFan » January 22nd, 2016, 9:24 am

whoops disregard the double post.
Last edited by RacinFan on January 22nd, 2016, 9:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: observation

Postby RacinFan » January 22nd, 2016, 9:25 am

I like that idea's that are being thrown around here. :)

This is the first healthy debate/sharing session in quite awhile.

At eagle river this year they ran a stock class a couple days, I thought it was pretty cool. Those sleds did a good job of putting on a decent show. What were the specifications for that class? Do you guys believe that class could be built/enhanced?
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Re: observation

Postby jhooper/HRE » January 22nd, 2016, 10:21 am

Howard,
You are living in fantasy land.
The insurance company will certainly NOT allow completely open rules.
I am quite sure the only way they would allow unlimited 600 engines is if we could prove that corner speeds and lap times would be no faster than the current Champ sleds. Our safety record is not exactly stellar.
Why would any engine builder or racer want to spend endless money to develop a direct injected 2 stroke race engine that is really fuel efficient ??
Your idea would take the average working man completely out of the game.
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Re: observation

Postby fast dad » January 22nd, 2016, 6:14 pm

ZERO rules...NONE....Insurance can be bought for a 1 race deal, expensive yes, but the interested will out weight the costs!! Not even fuel, studs, carbides, tracks, (number of even or style, Smooth?) motors,motor size, chassis, skis,weight,brakes, even allow the OutLaw sleds..nothing..Well maybe noise can't win against the EPA...ops

ERWC is it own entity they can do what ever they want, thats why I said this race only, nothing to do with TRL Cup...25 laps straight no pit stop...straight...no reds unless personally injury...

Costs are irrelevant real racers will race, for those of you who think more rules save money, just the OPPOSITE it cost MORE...I can prove it too...

Racer will find out what engine and chassis package is best, BUT there will always be the ones who think they can make it better and faster, THATS where growth and interest come from, watching the same old same old year after year does not promote growth let alone and interest..There will be numerous motor builders, chassis builders, stud makers, carbide makers, track manufactures, Turbo builders, Super Charger builders, shock manufactures....

Just a note, what sled was the most talked about sled ever in snowmobile racing??? Twin Track Alouette!! Why because there where no rules and it brought interest..was it competitive?? not really but it made a mark and showed ingenuity...

FYI I just watch this years ERWC and all sleds where lifting at the start finish line by lap 4, speeds in qual will be way slower in the race..

The more the interest the bigger the purse too, it could make it like it once was 25K to win...I would bet ERWC would attract more sponsors...

Again just for discussion, I seriously doubt anything like this can happen but with out any dialog it never will...

Have Fun TJ
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Re: observation

Postby jhooper/HRE » January 23rd, 2016, 9:24 am

TJ,
If we had a large pool of drivers capable of handling machines like these it might be worth discussing.
Do you remember the F3 days??
Their were only a few drivers physically capable of being competitive because of the body size and strength needed to manhandle something like this on an ice oval. These are not machines with a roll cage and power steering.
The only way your concept could possibly see the light of day is to limit front and rear grip so an average size driver could physically control the machine.
I would like nothing better than a new and exciting class of racing with more powerful engines BUT we need to be realistic about what we can and cannot achieve.
The race cars you spoke of are limited on the amount of grip they can achieve and an average size person can handle one.
The very minimum rules we would need to make this OPEN concept work would be SPEC. studs, carbides and track.
This would eliminate the need for a Mike Houle type driver. This would also reduce wear on the ice surface. John H.
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Re: observation

Postby proton » January 23rd, 2016, 4:14 pm

Soo sled info

* sled empty wt - about 500-530lbs

* engine formula - 600cc open mod about 150hp/1000cc direct drive 4-stroke open mod, the long stroke of the two stroke limits the rpm to 8800-9300rpm

* 121 track - 1" to 1 1/4" flight, no one runs hookers, anywhere from 200-300 carbide tipped push thru studs

* front carbides - most teams run a round host bar with 8-10 in carbide, because of how high the sled sits,to much
grip, front or rear makes the sled high side, they are looking for the sled to slide in the rear to help turn when the carbide is gone, its magic watching a perfectly set up sled sliding thru the corner with precision.

* yesterday at the No Bull Triple Crown, on the 1/2 mile track at Caro (Mitch Diamond compares it to weywega) the fast sleds were reaching 83-85 mph, the champ sleds were running 95-97 mph

* you can buy a turn key brand new sled ready to go from polaris or cats race shops for about $17,000

as a side note:
the cost to race champ is so offensive with the unnecessary things like Ti studs ect...I personally think the Pro-light formula is fantastic, we had a pro-lite sled racing here in Caro yesterday, after 10 laps he was a full staight away behind the champ leaders, he had a $375 dollar engine, $100 in an old set of LRM pipes, Dave Wahl from Wahl Bros racing sold him a 10,000 rpm box....He ran all day with out a fuss, he beat all the champ sleds to the 1st corner in the champ final, nice class, Thankyou J.Hooper.
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Re: observation

Postby Flatout » January 23rd, 2016, 7:02 pm

John it was only a short couple of years ago when people thought you were in lala land talking about a radically new class and what developed was the Outlaw class. TJ is right that to stir up interest we need to have a radically new class that throws out the current rule book. I agree we need to make it safe and not have V8 sleds out there but whats wrong with a twintrack with a 600 Etec or a 325 lb sled all carbon fiber. We need a class that has "WOW Factor" . Yes a direct injected sled may be expensive but that's the way of the future for manufacturers so why not allow some of the current technology in race sleds. MAKE 6" carbides and 4 studs per lug with no hookers the traction limiting factor. no minimum weight. 45" wide, ski steered and track driven, 600 cc max and thats it!`

And it`s fun to fantasize.... :mrgreen:
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Re: observation

Postby fast dad » January 24th, 2016, 9:12 am

John I agree there are very few who could race these type sleds, BUT let them try racing them...I will promise you if you make a 200HP sled and race it against todays Champ sleds I will bet the todays sleds would beat the 200hp sled every time and expecially in 25 laps, THAT is my point!!! Todays sleds are about as fast as they can go, maybe a second faster in qualifying but during the race it all changes...Just listen to this years WC, they are ALL lifting at the start finish line by lap 4!!!in the first 10 lap race!! In qualifying they lift at the corner...The ER track is a great equalizer compared to a Alex, Valcourt...As you said, who can turn a 12" carbide for 25 laps?? no one, but let them try...

I am all about ingenuity thats what makes everything in this world go around, everything!! cell phones, computers...Lets let the creative people make the next concept racer....The more rules less participation, fact....I am in no means picking on you John, but when you brought out the outlaw sled concept I liked it a lot, I took the rules to 2 different sprint car shops to price getting some made...They all said to may rules, needed to be Chromoly tubing, for strength, to heavy of safety plates so they blew it off...I know they could have made the chassis for $1500.00 as they make sprint cars chassis for $3,000.00 with body work...This is wear we could have brought some Sprint, Midget racers to the sport....So rules deture people who want to make something that can say is there own...Just like you...

I will all come down to clutching and handling anyways the same people will still win, but it open the door for some creative minds..There are some pretty well off people in racing that may take a run at this...Lets see a older Ski-Doo twin tracker out there with a 600 200HP...let them try, there will be no track/drive system that could withstand the HP, but maybe someone will make tracks just for ER???

As far as expenses, yes racing cost a lot of money, if you can afford to race in this class drop down to F500...Plain a simple, I wanted to race in the Indy 500 when I was younger, I could not afford it...I worked hard and made a way for my kid to race in the 500..Give people goals and let them work hard at it to achieve it...

This is how it works, lets say Campolast gets contacted by someone to make this special track for there 200HP ERWC sled...Camoplast says"you know we need to test some tracks for the higher HP sleds anyways, what better place that with HARD packed ice, the ultimate test..So they build a track for free to test it...the same with Woodys, we need to make a taller stud that will hold up to high stress, we have this new material that needs to have the ultimate test, TEAM says you know we need to design a better primary clutch that can with stand the unitmate test, something that will holdup to high heat and stress lets test at ERWC....Dayco has this new Belt design that can withstand higher HP and heat!!! Right now they all go to Sno Cross or the Soo 500...Both of those have high HP motors...Speedwerx want to make superchargers for 600cc flat landers, and Boondockers want to make turbo for the flat landers, let make one for ERWC...There are you future sponsors....

Sno cross was growing leaps and bounds in the OPEN class until they made all the rules(stock every thing), not it is getting smaller...How many rules are at the Soo 500?? Didn't some guy with a older oval sled put it on pole last year but only made 30 laps??? How many entries are at the Soo this year???40-50...case in point...

Again all this is discussion I am not pointing out anyone I just want to bring some life back to the sport just like all of you..I did not go to ERWC for the foist time in many years, why it is not what it used to be!!! How do we get some of the interest back, it will never be like the 70-90s ever again, but it can be better...

have fun...TJ
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Re: observation

Postby Petawawarace » January 24th, 2016, 12:18 pm

TJ, I understand your excitement for innovation and development, but the class your describing would get out of hand very quickly. 200hp is too much IMO. Problem is you would likely see 350-400hp out of 600s pretty quickly. Look at the speeds cars achieve at Bristol. It's a half mile track, and they are averaging 150+mph with the speed record attempts. Snowmobiles with studs on ice have an incredible amount of mechanical grip. Push the speeds up and introduce some aero, and I'd bet you would see 130mph speeds and 10-12 second lap times at ERWC. Even if the driver was protected in a carbon tub, the facility could not handle them. Imagine a 750lb object hitting the bails/plywood walls at 120mph. They'd be through the backside of the hot seats.

It's a fun idea, but just unrealistic if you ask me.
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