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future of ice oval racing

Re: future of ice oval racing

Postby jhooper/HRE » March 18th, 2017, 10:21 am

Carbon fibre hoods are not a big advantage and they do last longer, IF we were to allow ANY carbon fibre it would be only the hood, especially since quite a few guys already have them.
One other rule I would like to see added:
No moveable or adjustable aerodynamic devices allowed.
John H.
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Re: future of ice oval racing

Postby Flatout » March 20th, 2017, 12:51 am

I like the direction you are steering the Champ class in. However we (CPT) tried a 600 stock based engine class and even with a fairly sizable purse were lucky to have 4 or 5 sleds. We ran a combo class with the 440s and it was a pretty even match up. Sabrina won the last combo race in valcourt against a very well prepared 600 sled. I wholeheartedly agree the cost of a competitive engine package deters people from coming into the sport. You should make the rules on base gasket. 5 mm and specify that the exhaust flanges have no protrusions into the port. Also no boost bottles should be the rule. I would suggest that the guys that have a lot of investment in their 440s should be allowed to run them as well for a couple of seasons to use up their investment. I agree 100% Ti studs should be banned. I also think that billet clutches should be banned to eliminate the haves and the have not. Your clutch setup for example is not available unless you buy an engine package.
As a tech guy it will be difficult to tech the stock cylinders without a top end teardown but it would sure cut costs and up reliability
In the rule it sould state no metal removal or adding material of any kind or changing the texture of any surface. What hp would you expect from a 600 with 32 mm carbs and twin race pipes?
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Re: future of ice oval racing

Postby jhooper/HRE » March 20th, 2017, 7:55 am

Howard,
The main reasons the "factory 600" class died is because it was too expensive to be a non-premiere class {most exotic Champ stuff was still allowed} and the "spec" hand built single pipe was impossible to tech.

You need to get your facts straight! The clutches we use are available to anyone, you do not need to buy an engine to get one.
The custom ground ramps are only available to racers with my engines, these clutches come with a generic ramp much like a generic ramp you get with a Comet or Polaris clutch.
IF you are going to outlaw any clutches it should be the Comet which is just an explosion waiting to happen.
If you want to limit clutching in this PREMIER class you really have just another spec class that doesn't allow for any creative ideas. John H.
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Re: future of ice oval racing

Postby FmrCrew » March 20th, 2017, 1:11 pm

Here goes the same debate again....If you look at the real reason Champ racing is still the same size all you need to do is look at the real issue and that is not that many real good tuners, just a fact....The best tuners are old racers and can make the right call on clutching, plain and simple...the cost issue is a non issue to me, at all I see at the races in ALL classes are 30-48 ft trailers, 60-75K each, they all have 50-75k tow rigs correct??? the sled costs are a non issue if you look there are many old sleds that can win champ, potter 2008 Wahl, Delandria 2011-12 Wahl/schultz, how about Goede that sled was not run for 3-5 years and almost won!!!!! You can't make racers not spend money, if they have they will spend it, thats the way the world is the have and have nots, never going to change....The more rules you make the smaller it will get, just look at any racing organazation, even NASCAR, or Indy Car...You can not make someone buy a brand specific part unless that specific part is sponsoring the series, why G-Force reeds in champ??? I get it in Semi Pro they sponsor the series. If everyone wants a cheaper track use it, or you make Camplast sponsor the series for 25K and we all use it, or make Kempex sponsor the series...My opinion on the 600cc....lets make them run the stock motors with a open pipe BUT make the ECU a standard ECU for everyone with that brand motor....hand them out the morning of the race give it back end of day pee pick for new ones each day....If they are all the same it should not matter one little bit in tunning the motor...If you want one for testing buy it from the manufacture....you could make a rev limiter at 10,000 or 10,500 or even 9625 what ever it is it is (I could get into more detail later)...that will make all gearing the same pretty much...Bottom line is you can not control the costs they will spend what is necessary to win thats the American way....You want to go win go work for it financially or build and make your own stuff or buy what ever it takes...Thats just how racing works from the top to the bottom....
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Re: future of ice oval racing

Postby whiteshellman » March 20th, 2017, 3:31 pm

I am just a big fan of oval ice racing.. I come out to see the champ sleds because of the sound,speed etc.if they don't stand out from the rest I believe we will lose even more spectators.I also believe we need more stock racing because it was so much fun to watch the brand loyalty crowd seeing there brand win on a sled that they can go to there local dealer and buy the same sled. At beausejour it was great to see such a great turnout that I haven't seen in years,made me think ice racing isn't dead after all.
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Re: future of ice oval racing

Postby jhooper/HRE » March 20th, 2017, 4:11 pm

You guys that don't have the oysters to put your real name out there have very little credibility in my eyes.
If money has nothing to do with numbers how do you explain the FACT that there are 2 or 3 times as many F-500's as there is Champs??? It's certainly not for the purse money.

You are correct that our sport lacks experienced tuners, Stock engines are EASIER to tune.

Just because you see 8 or 10 huge, expensive haulers has nothing to do with the budgets of most snowmobile racers and a 10-15 sled field is pathetic compared to what it should be.
Reed valve rule could be completely open BUT every racer I know uses V-Force anyway.
Policing ignition systems is near impossible and not needed, we can easily control power output with carb size and they are very easy to tech. John H.
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Re: future of ice oval racing

Postby tonyave » March 20th, 2017, 6:43 pm

We came up with a spec ECU program for Trans Am's TA2 class, using a very buttoned down locked unit built by some friends of mine at AEM in CA. Basically, you buy the hardware, download a map online from their website, and it truly has proven to be a lockable piece, not to mention they can tell if someone has tried to access it. We did this to get rid if the constant complaints about traction control, cheating the rev limiter, etc. In order to really be able to enforce it, we also mandated a spec wire harness as well, since resistors in the harness can alter what the ECU sees etc.

It may not be what works for you, but in any case it has worked well for us among teams with budgets in the Million dollar plus area in some cases.

Big resistance at first, now everybody says it was the best thing we did.

Tony Ave
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Re: future of ice oval racing

Postby FmrCrew » March 20th, 2017, 7:20 pm

The fact of the matter is the sled costs are not the issue, how can you dispute that when you are selling sleds for 29K?? That is basically the same price as all the other sled builders...If you put a Darcy Motor in then you can add a few thousand...Ti studs are not even being used by most champ racers, I would be surprised if any are to be honest...Ban carbon fiber?? well if someone wants to put carbon fiber on what is the difference than a billet clutch, thats super expensive too...The Carbon fiber hoods are cost savings to all racers, you can even put them though a hay bail and pull it back out with little or no damage and finish the race if you can....The hood can save a sled from being damaged too..

As far as F500 that is a great class for beginners...that class you can run multiple classes each weekend (sport, limited 600, pro, Jrs, womens) so it works well for guys needing races...That class got more expensive that proposed, a decent sled is $6500 a good sled $9500...In regards to Champ racing it is for the professionals, so you will have less racers no matter what, not a beginner class, so you loose many racers who can not race a sled at 100MPH and should not, so you cant have the same entries and won't...BUT if you look at Pro Vintage the ERWC for 440 SM had 45 entries!!!!! If you where at Alexandria that class had close to 40 entries and put on the best racing all weekend!!!! Guess what the rules are non existent!!! You have reed valve motors, piston port, rotary valve, zero rules on the sleds, rolled chain cases, custom built sleds costing over $20,000 and I bet some are closer to $30,000...So how can you say that adding rules and trying to limit costs add more racers??? That gets to my point less rules makes it better racing for Champ and the premier classes!!! Let people build and make what they want that is what will drive the sport, and create sponsorships....

I will not make to many comments on motor as I am not a motor guy...I do know that ECU make a HUGE HUGE difference I am around all forms of racing...IRL hands out ECU the morning of race, NASCAR hands out ECU before race, USAC hands out rev limiters, and it is teched...So you can't tell me they don't make a difference....When you can program your entire ignition mapping it matters!!!I know how it can be teched and how to make it work from a rules point...It would need to be for the 600 motor only, not the 440s

TJ Patrick (I wanted to post the first post with out my name to see how it was treated). Hope this adds credence..my oysters are just fine..haha
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Re: future of ice oval racing

Postby Flatout » March 20th, 2017, 8:12 pm

John I'm not trying to be a dick head but a clutch without tuning parts is kinda useless. If you read my post I said "clutch setup" not clutch. What do charge for one of your "Polar style" clutches? I wasn't singling you out btw there are teams that put a Crown Royal bag over their clutch to keep everything secret. I'm sure that Mike Houle wouldnt sell his clutch setup cheap either.
I agree the 102C is a ticking time bomb and shouldn't be allowed on a 10500 rpm engine. They were designed for 8500 max and add the grinding of the pockets for the weights and they crack resulting in projectiles.
I'm not sure why the vintage WC attracts so many entries and as you know the engine rules allow a lot more than champ and can run 5 figures or more. I am with you on banning Ti studs but with surplus outlets like titanium joe (titaniumjoe.com) making shafts or handlebars isn't like it used to be, especially if you have friends with a machine shop. I think the biggest issue is the fact that champ sleds are perceived to be too dangerous and too fast.
I'm not sure what the answer is. Maybe a carb spec and a minimum diameter on the pipe outlet orifice will slow them down but teams with money will always figure out a way to spend. Silicone slide lube for instance. $50 plus a gallon. What about peek or vespel slides. And there is a new aluminum available that is stronger than ti, half the weight of ti and twice the price of ti.
We can't ban aluminum. What we really need is more purse money but unless another Tommy Lipar turns up we are on trouble.
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Re: future of ice oval racing

Postby jhooper/HRE » March 21st, 2017, 8:44 am

TJ,
The 29k price tag IS EXACTLY MY POINT!!
If we had COMMON SENSE RULES for a sport that will NEVER HAVE BIG MONEY SPONSORS AVAILABLE in any numbers I could sell a complete sled for 19k. It may not be the whole answer but thankfully there are only about 3 of you guys that are blind to the facts we must deal with.
MARK MY WORDS! The premier vintage class will decline soon for the same reasons that Champ did. It may not decline as severly because they are less demanding and SAFER to drive because of reduced corner grip.
We had 40+ Champ sleds 15 years ago but then the racers in the back half of the field began quitting because of 3 big reasons. #1-They didn't have the budget to buy the stuff the front runners use #2- they didn't have the technology or tuning abilities to compete. #3- Even if you have the money and tuning ability it takes an extremely talented driver to push a Champ to it's full potential.
I have also lobbied for years to reduce corner grip slightly {LESS CARBIDE} to make these sleds safer AND EASIER TO DRIVE.
We can't do much about #2!! BUT if we reduce expenses it certainly makes it easier for guys to continue racing in the back half of the pack and if we SLIGHTLY REDUCE GRIP it will make the sleds easier to drive which will make more drivers competitive.
We all know the top 10 guys usually don't quit no matter what until they are ready to retire.
To have a full field you MUST focus on what it takes to keep the back half of the field happy.
It's just common sense. John H.
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