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New Champ option ?

Re: New Champ option ?

Postby jhooper/HRE » April 21st, 2017, 7:51 am

TJ,
You are correct, the Arctic motor requires the chassis to be designed differently but it can be done.
Dustin Wahl has suggested that we allow 600's sleeved down to 440, this could be an option because it would not effect current engine programs.
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Re: New Champ option ?

Postby FmrCrew » April 21st, 2017, 8:54 am

I am with David (I talked about that a couple years ago) on the sleeving down of 600...BUT you need to put it out for bids to see who will and can sleeve them down and make them become a serious sponsor...Same with fuel...anything that is spec needs to be bid out and make them become a sponsor...Just like your V Force reeds you spec and made them become a title sponsor...Again we need Tommy Liper involved or they will be racing form peanuts...

TJ
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Re: New Champ option ?

Postby jhooper/HRE » April 21st, 2017, 9:40 am

We are not talking about a "spec" engine, these sleeved down 600's would run under the same modified 440 rules we currently have so racers and engine builders just have more parts to choose from to reach the current 440cc limit.
If we are allowed to mix and match cyls, cranks, cases etc. from any engine 440 to 600, 1995 or newer of the same brand it would allow us to use the current engine platform forever.
The only problem is that it does nothing for cost control but most of us realize that stock engines really don't control costs either and you have just certain guys getting the good stuff.
Darcy and I both charge around 6500-7000 for a complete engine package and we have finally come to the point were you likely can run the same package competitively for a few years.
Because of how wide open the current engine rules are I think it is unlikely that allowing us to use parts from a 600 engine will make any significant difference in power output.
Biggest cost savings would be eliminating any exotic materials on the track AND making Kimpex and Camoplast go back to making tracks with the same durable rubber that is in their production tracks so guys could get a couple seasons out of 1 track instead of using 2 or 3 tracks in 1 season at a cost of $1200+ each.
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Re: New Champ option ?

Postby RacinFan » April 23rd, 2017, 10:22 am

I love the way we can have good discussions on here again.

These are probably stupid questions. But they are rattling around my head.

When (approx) where 440 race motors last manufactured?
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Re: New Champ option ?

Postby Mr.Pipe » April 23rd, 2017, 11:48 am

The 440 Snow-Cross engines were last installed in race/production snowmobiles in 2007. Speaking of SkiDoo, they made a large run of parts for the 440's around 2012, and still have some of that remaining for sale thru the race shop.
I'm not sure when Polaris last made 440 parts, there was rumored to have been some new cylinders made available to the race teams last year. I don't know much about Cat 440 parts, but with fewer racers using them, I wouldn't expect them to run short as quickly.
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Re: New Champ option ?

Postby mdmill2x » April 24th, 2017, 8:50 am

In my experience the Cat SnoPro 440 laydown motor and parts are readily available. We ran a Cat laydown in the #82 Pro Lite the last two years. It did take some effort to install the Cat motor in the Wahl chassis but it wasn't that expensive or difficult. There are CAD files for the plates that need to be made because the motor is hung from the sides.
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Re: New Champ option ?

Postby 1987wc » April 24th, 2017, 10:47 am

John I don't think there is any thing wrong with the current engine package. I also believe there's a lot of parts available for many more years of racing. I didn't start this thread. If every one thinks the engines are too expensive and there are no more parts available I just wanted to offer an idea that would be cheap, keep engine and pipe builders involved, give the class a little meaning to the manufactures and keep everyone at a pre determined H.P. thus keeping safety somewhat in check. Again I didn't start this thread but if the idea of it was to get more people into champ then I think my idea has merit. Again the ti studs and backing plates need to go. I have other ideas about the tracks but that needs to be discussed with ISR.
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Re: New Champ option ?

Postby FmrCrew » April 24th, 2017, 7:46 pm

Not sure all manufactures are on equal playing field in terms of the 600cc motors...Polaris changed there stock motor to match the Mod motor in bore and stroke, shorter...I believe the Ski too and ACat have longer strokes...Again I am not motor guy, but a short stroke motor will turn more RPM than a Long stroke motor...I would venture to say that all motors would end up being Polaris 600cc not the production type motors of ski doo and Cat...Right now all have the same stroke I believe....

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Re: New Champ option ?

Postby jhooper/HRE » April 26th, 2017, 1:25 pm

None of these engines have a stroke long enough to be a problem at 10,000 rpm.
There really has never been equality among the 3 engine brands in hp output or chassis fitment but if we are allowed to modify, mix & match parts with only a cc and carb limit {kinda like it is now only a few more options} the knowledgeable engine builders will all come up with similar hp numbers.
If we are going to stay with 440's it might make more sense to allow us to mix and match between brands if we choose, this would make parts availability better and would equalize the 3 brands even more.
The rules are so open now on cylinder modifications you can actually weld, machine and modify an Arctic cylinder to duplicate 90% of a Rotax cylinder if you have enough time and money so why not make it cheaper for the racer by allowing us to use whatever oem parts we want that originate from a 1995 or newer engine 600cc or less as long as it measures less than 440cc.
The shortage of new crank parts for the Polaris would be less of a problem with this rule change.
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Re: New Champ option ?

Postby Flatout » April 26th, 2017, 10:19 pm

John I think mixing parts between manufacturers would not be a good idea. It would open up a whole new can of worms sort of like the Vintage SM FA class is going through. I agree that the strokes of current 600 engines are not long enough to cause severe piston speeds or bearing failures to 10K. I would also have no problem allowing sleeved 600 cylinders as long as the stroke is the original as the qualified engine. The biggest problem we face is the engines are at a performance level that makes them in my opinion almost
too fast (yes I said it). The 600 engines in the 600 open class were too fast (I don't think you will get too much argument there) so we restricted the carbs to 34 mm and they were still too fast. The 440s now are basically at the level that the 600s were. so allowing more open rules would give fresh opportunity for the engine builders like yourself and Darcy to extract even more power. The other problem is there are no more new 440 engines being produced and the supply of good used stuff is dwindling. I troll E Bay and Kijiji and a couple of years ago you could find all sorts of used 440 stuff but lately the listings for complete engines and usable cylinders and cranks are very rare. Rotax cranks also do not have aftermarket rods available and we are at the mercy of BRP to continue to offer rod kits as OEM parts. BTW two rod kits are more than $500. cdn.. So that leaves us with using current engines in order to ensure we do not have to scrounge around and rebuild 10 year old snowcross engines. So how do we allow the current 600s while keeping the engines at a power level that does not create the scenario we saw with the 600 open class yet keeps the engine builders happy,the costs reasonable and the fans entertained (and not be a tech mans nightmare)! And as John suggested make it another option not mandatory but it needs to be at tghe current 440 performance level.
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