Subscribe Today

New Champ option ?

Re: New Champ option ?

Postby crwdog » February 27th, 2018, 6:02 pm

I'm going to get kicked in the groin for this, BUT here it goes. DOES CHAMP REALLY MATTER? don't get me wrong, I LOVE watching the class, and I don't want to see it go away. But DO 20 some teams really matter? I see something like 30 drivers listed on the TLR website, and it looks like only 10 or so compete regularly. What do you think will happen when the TLR’s financial backer decides enough is enough?
Not everyone that races has the admirations to race CHAMP.
In the big picture of our sport, this one class means little. Yes, we all understand how our beloved sport in on life support, but CHAMP is not the defibrillator that can save us. Focus more on getting late 90's mid 2000's sleds on the ice so people can relate to them. Build the core big classes that have a future. Grow the grass roots appeal. Figure out how to help the sanctioning bodies lower their costs to promoters so there can be more regional racing.

Don't know the answers, but I look at things from a different perspective.

Monty
crwdog
Member
 
Posts: 49
Joined: August 16th, 2005, 8:39 am
Location: central MN

Re: New Champ option ?

Postby Spy-Guy 74 » February 27th, 2018, 11:00 pm

Monty I believe without Champ or a elite class that would replace it, we would never have the venues we now race at. I just don't see any promoters staying in the game. New fans may not relate to it, but at the same time they love the show the Champ sleds provide. All the class needs is more drivers, changes need to take place to make that happen.

I agree with you that all racers don't have aspirations to become a Champ driver, really thats been the case always. Just like not everyone wanted to be a F-1 driver or a F-3 driver. Personally I feel if we don't have Champ or a class that replaces it, we won't have the chance to race in Ironwood, Wausau, Alexandria, and all the other tracks the Champ sleds race at. My take is if Champ would go by the wayside so do those promoters. So in this guys eyes it does matter.

I've been around the track quite a while, trust me every team matters and maybe even more than ever before. If we had twenty five percent of the drivers that have left the sport in the last 20 years you couldn't even find room to park everyone for a race weekend. Most of those people left for reasons other than just being to old for the sport
Spy-Guy 74
Member
 
Posts: 317
Joined: July 25th, 2003, 11:38 am
Location: Almost in Canada, MN

Re: New Champ option ?

Postby Ovals Forever » March 4th, 2018, 9:17 pm

Is it that they don't want to race champ or is it because the risk isn't worth the reward ????????

When you add up how many miles these top teams travel, add up the total cost of the sled or sleds, travel expense, etc etc etc some champ teams have to be spending a $150,000 plus, a year and on top of that figure in how dangerous it is.

And the winner at the end of the year gets $15,000

It's not hard for me to figure out why there are only 10 champ sleds on any given weekend.

T.J. I can't imagine what it must of been like for you and your wife watching the team strap your little girl into an Indy Car knowing she would be going 220 + MPH it had to be gut wrenching but at least the reward was more then getting your name scribed on a traveling trophy that 1% of the world will ever know about.

Don't get me wrong guys and gals "Thank God For Tony Lipar" but when you really stop and think about it for what these guys are risking, spending, and doing the pay isn't even close to being worth it.

Sno Jet put up a million dollars for Sno Jet racers in the early 70's.
Ovals Forever
Member
 
Posts: 346
Joined: March 21st, 2005, 7:20 pm
Location: Lisbon ND


Re: New Champ option ?

Postby jhooper/HRE » March 5th, 2018, 1:57 pm

You have hit on some very good points.
It is great that at least one of the TLR cup races have been in the east the last few seasons BUT the extra traveling and hotel expenses for the Midwestern racers is substantial.
I believe most of your points are "dead on", The risks and expenses vs. rewards are not at all what we need to see for growth. This is why I think we need to make major changes to keep our sport alive.
With the lack of support from manufacturers it makes little sense to let ANY of our rules be dictated by them.
I know TJ always points out the top teams having no problem with the costs since they have big semi's and lots of expensive goodies BUT most of us realize that these few teams do not represent the norm in our sport and these few teams certainly don't need us to change anything to help them. The changes need to happen to encourage more "working man" race teams to move up to the top class.
Sure the racing is great amongst the few top teams BUT it's not much of a show when you barely have enough sleds for 3 small heats and sometimes only 2 heats.
I firmly believe we could double the numbers in the top class with some common sense changes to cut expenses and corner speeds to something more manageable.
We need to be realists! Big TV coverage is unlikely to ever happen for various reasons. Why waste time discussing it.
Our sport is far more likely to see a decrease in funding than an increase so lets gear the rules accordingly. John H.
jhooper/HRE
Member
 
Posts: 269
Joined: March 24th, 2005, 12:52 am
Location: goshen,nh

Re: New Champ option ?

Postby sport6 » March 5th, 2018, 11:24 pm

One idea I have floating around my head. To help with keeping cost down, and hopefully more drivers move on past racing F500 sleds and taking the next step to a pro-lite type of sled.

The idea is to run the F500 motor in a pro-lite chassis, with a Wahl type 121 rear suspension.

One it would allow guys to run there current tracks/hood/motor and putting it a better chassis. And there are a lot of F500 running around the Midwest.

One rule I would change would be the motor. And allow to run 1989 to the last year of the 500 piston port Fuji motor. To which I believe was 2004ish. To allow for more cylinder and head availability, even though Polaris made plenty of these motors.
sport6
 
Posts: 4
Joined: February 20th, 2011, 11:54 am
Location: St. Cloud

Re: New Champ option ?

Postby jhooper/HRE » March 6th, 2018, 7:56 am

to me,the obvious solution for a premier class that would have 30+ sleds immediately would be to use the current F-500 chassis and just put a lightly modified 600cc w/small carbs and a hood brand to match the engine. Maybe even go a step further and use a spec. set of inexpensive clutches and only a playback tach for data.
I know this is not as exciting to us gearheads as "open" type rules BUT it's time to get realistic about what it would take to see 40+ sleds competing for the w.c. again.
No matter how exotic the sleds are IT IS LAME WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE ENOUGH SLEDS to make a full field for qualifying!
We could even start a class like this as a support class that had some added purse and round robin qualifying and after a year or 2 it could become the premier class when Champ totally collapses. Kinda like F-1 and Champ were in the late 90's.
John H.
jhooper/HRE
Member
 
Posts: 269
Joined: March 24th, 2005, 12:52 am
Location: goshen,nh

Re: New Champ option ?

Postby FmrCrew » March 6th, 2018, 11:19 am

Ok what is with people putting words in the mouth lately?? Breitbart new, Fox News, John Hooper?? When did I ever say" BIG TV coverage?"

I have never claimed to be a motor guy, but one thing I know about is marketing and sponsorship...Sponsors need a ROI no one just gives money out anymore..This is what drives racing unless you want to just club race for fun!! If a good Live feed with good announcers that is tied to many organizations, and MAV TV could bring eyes to the series!!!(500,000 paid viewers). This is so teams can get sponsors and grow the series!! Your $1000 can turn into$5,000 with a ROI to the sponsors. more prize money, more sponsorship dollars to teams.... Yes you need to go out and work for it, now it is up to you...called hard work!

Their will always be the Penske's of the world in racing!!! Some teams will spend $150,000 no matter what, thats just fact..those big teams will have 2 sleds, spare motors, spare everything!! the little guy has 1 sled and 1 motor and crashes out he quits!! the big team rolls out a spare sled complete..you will always have that, how can you stop that??? The best team will have the best tuners, just fact..How do you police that? the best team usually has the best driver, how do you penalize him??? start in the back row??

I see that they want to make F500 the premier class, how about the BIGGEST oval class right now?? Vintage 440 SM!! the reason?? It has ZERO rules, build it and race it...the sled cost are not far off Champ sleds and there are over 50 yes 50 entries for the Vintage ERWC !!! fact!! Maybe make this class the Premier class it already has the sled count, and there are 15 racers that can win that class!! These sleds are newer than the F500 sleds...It is also the best class of racing all weekend...???? same logic, maybe better..

I really don't see the the biggest issue as costs?? Why?? You take a Pro lite rider and put him on a top team sled, he will still not win right away...these guys on the top level are good, how many new racers are willing to pay there dues to learn and get better??? I ask you John, could you take a kid 17-20 years old from Pro Lite and make him win in Champ the first year??How many years will it take??? it is hard the best teams are the best prepared and have the best riders and best tuners, right now there are 10 riders that can win in Champ on any weekend...Case in point Jerry brickier won Pro lives last year, has the same sled and motor combination as the 2 times TRL cup champ...He spent close to the same money and ran 5-10...It is hard and it takes years, thats why the entries are not there...First race in Ironwood had 20 entries..Why don't there Pro elite kids race in Champ for experience, laps, testing?? run both classes?? travel costs are already there!!

You can lower some costs I agree but it still won't ever get to be 30-40 sleds...F500 does not have 30 sleds! Vintage 440 sm does, zero rules...You can raise the weight to 400 they will still build a 375 lb sled and add the weight where it helps handling...zero savings...Stock motors, now they all need to buy new ones..lowering to 6" of carbide, still going to be the same people winning...Sure it might be easier to drive/turn for a small guy, but what about the bigger guy over 200lbs he lost his advantage of being able to use 12" because he is stronger?? so there are pros and cons to every issue...I just hate to see the liberal logic to penalize people so that other people can be equal...never ever happens and usually separates them further...I know a small team that works super hard can win in Champ, look at Blain Stevenson small 24 ft trailer, just a couple guys, but they work hard and won the ERWC and a couple TRL Cup races, same as Potter...they all didn't win until in the series for a few years....I doubt Blain spends 150K...So your point it is to expensive has a bunch of holes...hard work is the bottom line...

Safety has to be another issue...I will discuss later...

Also what about paying down further PER race rather than paying it all a the end of the year???What if you start the final you make $500.00?or more, and winning you get like $2,000? not formulated but it keeps teams racing if they are out of the points half way into the season??? and small teams taking home some money to pay for pit passes..

TJ
FmrCrew
Member
 
Posts: 40
Joined: March 20th, 2017, 12:09 pm

Re: New Champ option ?

Postby Ovals Forever » March 6th, 2018, 2:06 pm

Not taking sides but there was a 16 or 17 year old that won WC with a Hooper motor in his first two attempts dam near his first 3 .
We all know who that was and I might add there were some heavy hitters with a boat load of experience
Ovals Forever
Member
 
Posts: 346
Joined: March 21st, 2005, 7:20 pm
Location: Lisbon ND

Re: New Champ option ?

Postby jhooper/HRE » March 7th, 2018, 8:54 am

TJ,
As usual you completely miss my point as you continue to just focus on the few teams that are already in Champ and I am focused on what it will take to get new guys to jump up.
Yes, the same teams will likely win regardless of the rules. THAT'S NOT THE ISSUE!
The issue is lack of new racers moving up.
You are correct about the numbers in SM440 vintage. IT' EXACTLY LIKE CHAMP WAS 15-20 YEARS AGO.
WHAT HAPPENED??? I have been heavily involved the entire time AND I PREDICTED FROM THE BEGINNING that with rules this open it's only a matter of time before the better funded and better INVENTERS DOMINATE. Exactly the same thing will happen to SM440 for exactly the same reasons. It's already starting as guys realize how much it costs and how much knowledge you must have to run up front.
The current technology in Champ has taken quite a bit of driving/manhandling a sled out of the equation, if you don't have a sled that is near perfect in every way you are not in the game.
If the sleds were much simpler and less expensive it would be much easier for the younger race teams to be competitive.
Why do you think Nascar has turned the cup series into a spec. class???
It's because there is always only a few guys with the ability to "out-invent" the others and they dominate! Great for inventers like Durmont Wahl, Mike Houle and myself but LOUSY for the sport.
Example: I have a few new things we will be using on my new sleds and if they work as expected my sleds will again be dominant. where will this put the guys that can't compete with Mike Houles best stuff now??
Just like when I first came out with the 106" tracks, we dominated for a while. NEVER SHOULD HAVE BEEN ALLOWED!
John H.
jhooper/HRE
Member
 
Posts: 269
Joined: March 24th, 2005, 12:52 am
Location: goshen,nh

Re: New Champ option ?

Postby Flatout » March 7th, 2018, 8:08 pm

.The discussion is how to make champ affordable and still keep the competitive flavour in the class. John is right on when he says that to get new teams interested in stepping up to champ the costs must come down. Looking at the big ticket items some are easy to fix and some will take some guts to mandate. The engine rules as stand allow for people like Darcy and John Hooper to develop engines with big power and you price the engines out of the hands of everyone but the richest of teams. Also you restrict who you deal with to keep the technology as secret as possible. The result is that new teams with low budgets don't stand a chance and they shy away. Face it if the rule was stock cylinders with carburation to keep the hp equal with 440 and 600 you would stand to lose a lot of money but the upside would be that engine costs would be cut substantially and reliability would not suffer.
Flatout
Member
 
Posts: 191
Joined: November 20th, 2001, 5:05 am
Location: Ottawa Ont.

PreviousNext

Return to Ovals & Enduros

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron