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Formula 500 Rules

Formula 500 Rules

Postby proton » March 11th, 2013, 5:06 am

The quick change would have an advantage at the race track over someone who had to split the clutch on race day, thats why racers built them to begin with, to be able to change clutch setings quickly on race day
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Formula 500 Rules

Postby Spy-Guy 74 » March 11th, 2013, 5:06 am

Jeff I see your point on the quick change, but at the same time it will give the experienced tuner more of an advantage. For many people just getting the clutch cleaned between heats is all they can handle. With a quick change I can make adjustments in staging and would too. If I have to use the grunt tool I'll wait till a plow break or at the end of the day.

I guess on this one I'll just sit on the fence and see how it plays out. If there allowed I'll have them on all of our sleds, but we've use them in the past and quite familar with the adjustments.
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Formula 500 Rules

Postby Bob Vehring » March 11th, 2013, 5:29 am

With all respect, I just don't get the opposition to today's data systems in this class. You can buy a MyChron 3 or 4 for less money then a good playback tach.I have two used ones right now on the karting boards, one for $250, the other for $300 off of trade in karts.
In karting from 5 year old Kid Karts up used them, every 120 sled, even the vintage guys have them. The only thing that doesn't have them is this class and Outlaw ( which really doesn't make sense to me, everything but the engine is a ground up custom build but you can't have a data box at $450 new????)

We now have 6 races in on our F500, yes, we did get faster and learn some things, but what took us 6 races, all over the area, we could have learned as much and more in one session with a box,. Certainly that would have improved our season much earlier and made it more enjoyable rather then frustrating.
We spent the last race playing with tubes and needles trying to improve our holeshot. I just can't seam to see that instant you hit the gas on the plug or top of the piston. Many of you have the years behind you to understand all this, we don't. With just me and Regan doing two sleds, we tried, but just don't have time to get a box on for mourning hot laps and get it all back off for first round.
I understand some of you have test tracks, the closest/only one we have access to is 5 1/2 hrs away. Just getting there and back for a day cost more then a data system.Its almost impossible for us to get the time off work to make that happen. I just don't see the cost saving, we could learn as we race, without it it will take seasons to catch up to the people that know the class well. Its really a disadvantage for new people getting into this class.
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Formula 500 Rules

Postby Spy-Guy 74 » March 11th, 2013, 5:57 am

Bob I guess why I'm reluctant to change the rules and mostly because what's happened in the past. Many classes have went by the way side simply because of rule changes. Sprint class for instance, there's no reason why there shouldn't be 20 to 30 of these machines at the bigger races. Everybody wants something and before you know it, the racer's get tired of it and most leave. Sometimes we as racers are the problem and later blame an association or ISR for what took place. I've been around long enough to know somethings got passed because of a safety issue, and in some cases that was quite a stretch or at least to me.

Junior Sprint classes should have a full field of drivers, they don't and rules changes played a big part in that happening. Oval ice racing is in a quite fragile state at this moment if no one's noticed. I think the more stability we have now is for the better for all concerned.

It all escalates, you want a data device, someone else wants quick change clutch, I want open shocks, and someone else a Wahl skid down the road. See how it all plays out, the true die hard may stay around all the others go home. They all seem to find something other to do, as in most cases they don't return even to watch.
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Formula 500 Rules

Postby Petawawarace » March 11th, 2013, 6:24 am

Bob,
I agree with you that a data system saves you time and therefor money. But a data system would be very confusing to someone who doesn't know how to use it. I also find it very hard to believe that the closest test track you have is 5.5hrs away....

I can see your guys point on the quick-change, but I also have used the grunt tools between races. I just pull the whole clutch off and bring it into the trailer and takes about 3 minutes to split it and put it back together. I see the point of not having quick changes for price, but its actually cheaper to buy a quick-change than it is to buy a P-85 and a grunt tool. Either way I have no problem using the grunt tools and doing it that way.
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Formula 500 Rules

Postby Bob Vehring » March 11th, 2013, 9:29 am

Jeff, I live in Milw. which is now a suburb of Chicago any lakes around here are walled in by very nice Lake Homes. It usually takes about 20 min for the cops to show up, trust me, been there, paid the fine. I do know off a small pond we have been to about an hour away, but the most we can get out of it is a small straight.
I started in the 80 and 90's with data Race Pac and Pi Systems which then were DOS based system, today you plug a laptop (or you can see all info on the gauge) and in 30 sec. its all up on the screen for you to see. Granted you have to understand what all this means, but even with out data, you have to learn the various aspects of jetting and clutching to make any progress, Data just show where your at

Greg, I hear ya on Sprint, were buried in that with apparently no place to go. Thats how we ended up in this class.

Back on subject. Just to be clear I do understand very well both sides of the issue. For 25 years I have been Board Dir, of one of the largest kart racing tracks in the country, Involved in every rule and involved in many of the National series rules. The answer has to be simple common sense. I'm not really a fan of having locked in rules for any long period of time. New rules are often written in the off season. Not everyone has a chance to test it out. Sometimes things don't work out as planed, sometimes people once they get to try it, don't like it. Sometime new product come along that alter things like a MyChron compared to a Race Pac. In kart racing, every rule is up for review each year. The saving grace here is the sport has a strong enough Rules Comm. to sort out what really needs to be done, from what doesn't.
Looking at the clutch issue, currently you can't have QC clutches, I assume to save money, Certainly we have some people that because they don't have the time, tools or knowledge to change their clutches, then must get though the day with what they have. Now unless I'm missing something, what stops the well funded team from coming with 2-4-6 clutches all dressed up ready to go? Again the guy that takes the hit here, is the people with the least knowledge on clutches. He will spend weeks coming to each race with a different set up hoping he can "feel" the difference.

Just a question, given the spec nature in just about everything in this class, was a spec clutch set up ever considered? I realize that if your off for the day, theres nothing you can do, but so most likely is everyone. I'm not suggesting this, but spec I guess is what this class is about. No extra clutches, no boxes of tuning parts = saved money. Again, I'm not suggesting this, in fact I wouldn't like it at all, just making a point
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Formula 500 Rules

Postby Petawawarace » March 11th, 2013, 10:26 am

Bob, I'm not used to the laws in the US, just seems strange that you have to travel that far to test.

I have used the Mychron on the champ sled lots, and if I had the time for testing I would use it on the F-500. I still say no to data systems on the track. For testing I think it makes alot of sense to use for the reasons you stated above...it saves enough time to justify the cost. But if you do allow them, it will scare away some of the newcomers.

The QC clutch rule I thought was made to keep things lower cost. But what I have learned in the last few years is that clutching is so very important in this class. The clutch that you get when you buy your 20 year old sled is so out of shape it's either machine the sheaves and rebuild it with new rollers/bushing etc, or go buy a brand new P-85 non QC. This is what alot of guys are doing. Thats...like I stated earlier there is a $70 difference between the quick-change and non QC. Add in the price of grunt tools so you can make the clutch adjustments the proper way and its actually more expensive for the non-QC.

I do agree there would be a slight advantage in time savings in changing things at the track, but there would be ZERO actual performance advantage.

Bob, No need to show up with multiple clutches unless as a spare. The first time you split a P-85 it can take a little extra heat/effort, but once it's been off, its very quick. I could literally pull the clutch off the sled, bring it in the trailer, split it, change what I need to, and reassemble on the sled in 5 minutes...

I guess my biggest problem is after working with QC clutches, its frustrating how much effort it takes to change the same thing on a non-QC

This is all great discussion guys....Keep it coming
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Formula 500 Rules

Postby HRA motorsports » March 11th, 2013, 12:15 pm

The only change in rules that I would like to see is that they allow a heim joint to be put on the end of the trailing arms. when you widen the suspension to the 45 inches it makes the suspension want to bind at the rear mount. especially when you put any camber in it. As far as data systems and quick change clutches all that is going to do is make sure that anybody that wants to win has to spend more money to buy those pieces. Bob you said it yourself you guys were not competitive without it. so as soon as you guys have it on your sled. I am going to have to go buy one and figure out how to use it to be competitive with you. you want data systems and quick change clutches they have a class for that it is limited 500 or semi pro champ.
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Formula 500 Rules

Postby Petawawarace » March 11th, 2013, 12:50 pm

I hear what your saying about the trailing arms binding but it's really not an issue. The binding is actually caused by a combination of widening the sled and using the wrong bolt on the mount. If you use a bolt with the right length shoulder so it bottoms out before it crushes the bushing in the arm, it can move freely all day long. Not to mention the tech nightmare it would be to control it.
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Formula 500 Rules

Postby Petawawarace » March 11th, 2013, 12:58 pm

Part of the problem some people have is they think that if someone spends more money on one of these F500s that they will automatically be faster. That is so far from the truth it's not even funny. Data systems on the sled at the track is an advantage over not having it for sure. But that doesn't mean you need it to be competitive. The QC is not an advantage on the track. You can be just as competitive without it. You'll just wear out your clutch puller faster.
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