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2015 ISR rules already being dictated by the OEM'S?

2015 ISR rules already being dictated by the OEM'S?

Postby that 31 car » March 17th, 2013, 3:54 am

I would like to be a "cardinal" or perhaps just a 'bishop".
Perhaps a little levity is now in order.
Watcher is 100% on this one, I had the same thoughts, but he beat me to it. Figure you got a $50,000 a year job without expenses, and add another $50K for the expenses.
Who exactly is going to pay for this deal?
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2015 ISR rules already being dictated by the OEM'S?

Postby prochamp » March 17th, 2013, 6:02 am

Watcher and that31car
For once I agree, for sure it's a big job, but what about this? One rep per series, ovals Snowcross,enduros, hill cross, ect that meets with reps with the four OEM'S with the ISR as the mediator. For example the oval rep would meet with all the oval affiliates and make the format for the oval rules, with the Commissioner making the final call on the rules for that series to take to ISR board for implement.
Similar to what ISR started out to be but has Gotten somewhat removed from that. The Commissioner for that Series then answer all the promoters /participants questions and suggestions for that Series. ISR could still be the go between for all including negotations for the Insurance and legal issues as needed. Let them be the Commissioners for just those issues instead of all they try to do now. Yes the Commissioners for each series should be compensated for there efforts, travel ect. Yes again will cost $$ , but if all Series charge a fee for each OEM , competitor's and promoter's for each series could the cost be covered? Somewhat what NHRA does with it's Division heads that report to the NHRA President. Sound involved for sure, but isn't it time to look at all ISR tries to do for everyone and to delegate some of that responsibitly back to each groups leader. Each Series Comminisser provides guidance on tech and rule issues for there own series since they implemented them with Input from ISR on legal and Insurance regulations as needed. Again very close to what NHRA does within it's Divisions and there Tech done by each divisional techs
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2015 ISR rules already being dictated by the OEM'S?

Postby watcher » March 17th, 2013, 6:39 am

prochamp, do you realy think that there is enough money out there to do this? look at sled counts that are total built in 2013 from what it was in 1998. I heard one of the 4 said once "that they build more sled in one year then all four build today"

Look at what the insurance cost this year, groups we looking to drop out and or run on their own because of no extra money to pay for the increase.

Dick, Tom, Jerry spend costless hours for no pay, they do it for the love of the sport. i do charge for my services if i go tech a race, i have have been know to not charge or even not get paid for my services. I test lots of fuel and never sent a bill to the affiliations for it. i answer call, e-mail 7 days a week and not get paid for that. i put a (i think a great) tech school and donate my time to help out all ISR Groups for no pay.

Now we are going to pay someone to do what most of us (Marcel, tony, wally, mike, jerry, Bill,Andy, Byran) have done for the love, sit in the ISR Spring Meeting, spend time on what there group would like to see in the rules or changes.

I HAVE A HARD TIME THINKING THIS WILL WORK, but i know i have been wrong before

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2015 ISR rules already being dictated by the OEM'S?

Postby prochamp » March 17th, 2013, 10:37 am

watcher
Who knows what $$$ it would cost? That for sure needs to be looked at. I am not talking just champ sleds I was thinking all who join an association and run In all classes Total membership of each group. I totally understand all the work that Jerry, Dick and Tom Put in and have for years, but what is going to happen when they have had enough and finally give it up. If we dont look at upgrading the system for the New Generation where is it going to end up?? How much longer will Dick Jerry and Tom continue at there current workload?

Everyone is looking for direction and a cheaper way to do business. If a local group can get insurance cheaper then ISR then why is that??

Just looking for ideas for the future racers like those before us did for us and still are. How does the AMA. WKA Kart racing, run there structure and cover there cost? I am sure they have had dwindling numbers as well.

How can the Current system work to reduce the cost of racing, and help to promote new Blood. Tough calls for sure
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2015 ISR rules already being dictated by the OEM'S?

Postby Bob Vehring » March 17th, 2013, 2:59 pm

The more I read, the more this sounds like karting of 10-15 years ago. We have reps, 2 cy reps, 4 cy reps, Road Race, sprint and all types of oval reps, state and divisional rep and series reps. We need a rep just keep track of who the peps are. We haven't even talked about the committee's yet. Each one of them has the plan to set the sport right unfortunately, no two of them agree on anything.

Its pretty easy to see what either sport really needs, a few good people involved enough to sort through the BS, and enough balls to put it in effect. Knowing the right people in the sport and having the history to keep us from repeating the same past mistakes of course would be a plus.
Where could we find people like this, oh wait maybe some of them are in on this post
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2015 ISR rules already being dictated by the OEM'S?

Postby fast dad » March 18th, 2013, 2:14 am

There will always be questions. Here are a few answers.

First of all the structure is already there. The rules that the ISR have issued are provided to each and every race series affiliated with the ISR. Very simular to NASCAR how many NASCAR saturday night tracks are out there, hundreds! They all work under the so called banner. Now the commissioner does not travel to each and every event, neither does Jim France. They are there to help guide the rules, and be a person between the manufactures and the affiliates, and racers. You brought up the Pope word I used in reference, the Catholic religion works very similar, the Pope is there to be the go to guy with and issued and has the last word.

How do you pay for this commissioner, if you raise the membership fees, and have the manufactures match that amount. Right now the affiliates pay the ISR a sanctioning fee to keep them with income.

The racing series needs a leader to help guide the affiliates, drivers and manufactures. for instance, racing at night does it bring more people out to the races? if you go to a ISOC race they do get many people there at night so it does not take a whole day away. I like the way Super-cross works, could this format make it more profitable for affiliates? They do a 1 day event only, in and out, practice during the day, and the main event at night. How about finding a TV partner for ISOC, Champ racing, this is what brings in more money to everyone, again you need only one person contacting and representing snowmobile racing. Who knows the TV partner may like to show hill climbs? this is what the commissioner will do look forward and be the one go to guy. Right now if ESPN ask who is the go to guy to look at partnering for a TV package, who would it be? Will the number they are looking for be there and correct?

If you have the manufacture looking to see where the rules are heading the commissioner can have answers.

I am not saying what we have right now is bad, it could be better and start to grow. If you have a partner whether it be the racer, the affiliates, or Manufactures dictating the rules, it will be for there own interest not the best for Snowmobile racing. There needs to be someone who is the sounding board for all and to look at what all are saying and make a decision that is best for all. The infrastructure is in place just needs to be refined.

I am sure there will always be questions, and doubt, but if you look at every successful organization there is a go to guy. Right now snowmobile racing does not have one.

Bash away!!!

TJ
[b]fast dad[/b]
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2015 ISR rules already being dictated by the OEM'S?

Postby watcher » March 18th, 2013, 4:43 am

TJ, i would not bash you....but a lot of stuff you just said, ISR already does. ISR will send Jerry K or myself or even Tom Z will go to a race and help out problems. We have been going to Duluth ISOC race for years to help Scott in Tech and give him support. i will go to 120 races and help them through there problems. the first year for ORA, I went to Iowa to help Shawn for his first race. Tom and myself went out to Jackson Hole last year and Tom went out west this winter too. Scott from ISOC calls me dure a race or after a race for info. if we can't answer him, Tom will get ahold of the manuf for answers. Jerry, Dick and myself have going to the Soo and helping Bill out for 5 to 8 years. So my point is ISR is already set up for this.

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2015 ISR rules already being dictated by the OEM'S?

Postby Bob Vehring » March 18th, 2013, 5:14 am

TJ, there isn't really anything to bash. I think racers need to better understand the business side that puts on the races and see how it works.
I've been to meetings where a class that those racers themselves describe as the entry level, beginners class, want a bigger payout. Well every class wants a bigger payout. The more open the rules (chassis, engine) the more of an issue this becomes because of the cost to build for that class.
If you get, say 70% payback, that only leaves 30% for the group running the race to work with. If you get 100%, they get nothing for putting on the race for you. If you want a larger payout, other then actually going out and getting big money sponsors, where is that money coming from?

Snow X has gotten strong because it understand the same business plan as other successful racing organizations use. ISOC puts on very high level races from one end of the country to the other. Because its one big series, they have Amsoil, The Air Force, Traaxs, Dodge/Ram and all the others. They then got the CBS and Internet broadcast deals. which all brings in the spectators it takes to do this.
At each race ISOC brings in their area affiliate or divisional series to hold a race, and they build from that. The lowest step on this ladder is the local weekly series track. They survive well enough because almost everyone in snowmobile land sees and knows about it from the ISOC national tour, its always on TV. Anyone interested in racing seeks out their closest track to get started. Basically its a self feeding circle.

Oval racing looks to me like a group of several series, all trying to hang on to there area but basically competing with the series around them to survive.
Sorry I don't know much about Canada but around here it seams only ER has made that jump to the big time and I know that both Chuck and Todd are outstanding businessmen, they understand the sport, it is a business.

All this is just my opinion, which doesn't mean squat, but it seems to me, were kinda stuck where we are and short of a new plan, not going to change, which is a shame because I think our top drivers are as good at what they do as any drivers in Snow X or any other sport
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2015 ISR rules already being dictated by the OEM'S?

Postby mbenoy119 » March 18th, 2013, 6:09 am

I think what TJ is talking about goes way beyond just support of rule interpretations and tech. I agree Terry, ISR is already providing service in these areas and it often goes un-noticed to the average member of the affiliate organizations being supported.

TJ, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the point that you are driving at is the inability of the current structure of snowmobile racing as a whole to effectively bring about change and growth that will be good for the entire sport.

Through my experiences, I believe very firmly that democracy in snowmobile racing is a luxury that can only be afforded when things are going so well, and the cup is running over enough that everyone gets the taste they need to remain fat and happy. Those days are gone! Even very well developed groups, focused on small niches in the sport and operating without opposition, will begin to fail at the hands of their own democracy. The best quote I have ever read on the subject is almost 2500 years old, but still rings true today. "Only a wealthy society in which relatively few citizens lived in real poverty could a situation exist in which the mass of the population could intelligently participate in politics and could develop the self-restraint necessary to avoid succumbing to the appeals of irresponsible demagogues". Aristotle

An organization, no matter which kind, can surely make good or bad decisions, but there are things that can stifle, dilute and postpone even the best ideas when they are forced through not just one, but an entire GROUP of smaller political organizations; each of which having its own agenda and most often, each of those agendas being driven by vastly different factors. In the particular context of snowmobile racing, I believe the vast majority would benefit from a single (or at least very small) mindset. This is superior to democracies in the speed in which they can establish policy and implement rules that could resolve problems. A single entity can easily calibrate the institutional and legal framework, since they don't need any group political support for passing or repealing any of it. This framework can be efficiently managed, ignoring the special interests that need to be relatively reconciled in the current systems, through a time consuming process. So a pro-development, single minded leader (or group) has greater capacity to modernize and adapt a racing organization than a large group that will ultimately have within it, all kinds of personal agendas.

The key to a successful endeavor like this is entirely dependent on having the right person in place, and that's where it gets sticky in my opinion. We've established that a large group cannot be as effective as necessary, yet in the same breath would likely be counting on that same group to elect or appoint someone to lead it to the promised land??? That dog don't hunt...

I don't feel that the money would be an issue in the long run, as long as the service provided was beneficial.
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2015 ISR rules already being dictated by the OEM'S?

Postby proton » March 18th, 2013, 7:40 am

Part of the problem is most of these snowmobile racing organisations are run by the membership/volunteers or a board of directors....in my opinion, to do what you are talking about, these organisation would be better off privately owned or at a minimum, sell off the marketing rights to a private individual because history has shown us the membership run organisations always vote for what is in their garage and not what is best for the sport...spec fuel is a good example....NASCAR doesn't ask its race teams what they want for rules...its all about relinquishing control.
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