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What Will Replace Champ 440

What Will Replace Champ 440

Postby fast dad » March 16th, 2013, 12:25 pm

I think we are looking at this the wrong way, we need LESS rules not more rules. This is the premiere class that showcases snowmobile technology. The rules as they are are working perfect, they ones who want to change the rules for there benefit just need to work harder, that is the bottom line. I can verify that the teams that win ofter work hardest and test the most. Does it cost money, sure, if you don't want to spend that much don't race the class. This is the Formula 1 of snowmobiles, lets treat it like that not a spec class that anyone can race.

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What Will Replace Champ 440

Postby Fontaine Racing » March 16th, 2013, 12:29 pm

I think if you get to the 600 motor, modded or not. I would want my kid on a little beefier chassis, and would like to see every one out there with him to have equipment built to handle the xtra hp. = xtra wieght = less speeds.

as for the antique 34 mm carbs.I like em! they are way better than trying to get restrictor plates to work. (anyone mess with them on an F 500?)
and besides that we allready got em, plus lots of parts.

when the time comes be sure to think of the things that will keep people able to use some of the stuff weare still using so we dont all have to buy new tracks, skids, carbs,etc.or you will loose every thing you have going now,

cant see how you will replace champ and twin pipes with a single pipe? think about the FANS!! this is what they want to hear!
and yes the open 600 sleds were a couple miles an hour faster at BJ.
but if someone has the data out there I am sure you will find that class had the least number of incidents, when compared to any other during its existance.
I realy dont think putting a new 600 motor in an existing champ chassis (with some more beef added) will be that big of a deal.
you can not make the equipment we have now obsolete or we will loose everything Going in champ as it exists today.
keep it simple. please!
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What Will Replace Champ 440

Postby Petawawarace » March 16th, 2013, 1:00 pm

I think TJ is on the right track. The spec fuel could work and it's the right direction, but I'm not sure if we are big enough to make the logistics of it work. And I'm sure there would be a learning curve and some blown up motors the first little while.

Personally I don't see why we are even thinking about changing anything. Look at what rule changes in the past have done to this sport. The champ class is growing now. Let's not screw with that. I personally think the real reason the manufactures want the 600s in is so they can keep making money from the racers. If they run out of 440s at the factory they won't make any money off of the thousands of used ones out there. I know Claude has said that they support the local dealers at the races etc, and that is great, but I think that will stay the same weather we are running 600s or 440s
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What Will Replace Champ 440

Postby Bob Vehring » March 16th, 2013, 8:28 pm

Certainly an interesting discussion, but I think something is missing, Conversation or really the talk comes from two very different sides here. Theres the, we are the racers and this is what we want side, then there is the we are the promoters side that says, this is what we can do for you. Any race we go to, yes we the racers are the show. but you have to remember to "someone," that race is a business venture and it has to bring in enough money to survive. While ovals unfortunately have sunk to the level they have for attracting major sponsors that it gets, " who" does offer us money can sometimes be dangerous, meaning special interests or some special benefit.

When I have talked with people or on forums about the money side of oval racing I always get the limpdick excuse of, "Well the oems build snow X type sleds now, and that doesn't relate to ovals. I call BS. Look for the positive, not the negative, what we do have to offer is that oval racing is the most popular and common form of racing that almost any person can relate to, and thats worth something. Fans can relate and we certainly offer an exciting show
Its 2 am, I just got home from day 3 at the ISOC Grand Finales, one day to go. Isoc has to be the comeback story of decades in racing. What a first class show, more then a show, its a spectical. That sport has risen to that level because ISOC knows how to promote itself. I'm a little guy promoting a Kart track and 120 racing engines, I have $1500 worth of booth space and have been in that show for almost a decade, Why, because it pulls enough people that I make my money back, and then some.
They have a very impressive list of top tier sponsors, that makes it easy to get second tier supporters like me and that makes possible the level of races they have.
We (ovals) don't have many choices right now. IMO we have to make the sport itself strong again first, then make, at least enough money to survive on its own then not have to worry about "influence.
Right now we can't ask for ISOC kind of sponsor money, theres hundreds of companys out there that want to advertise but don't have a NASCAR budget. So we become the Jocky Underwear Nationals or the Skippy Peanut butter world championships, We don't get 100K to start, but maybe we get 10. Maybe thats enough to insure the people putting on our races can make it through another year and maybe your payout gets alittle better, but most important, maybe having one good name opens the door for getting more sponsors to join in.
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What Will Replace Champ 440

Postby fast dad » March 17th, 2013, 3:04 am

Bob you are exactally right right. This is why I would like to see a spec fuel for all racing. You approach the fuel manufactures and ask them to bid on how much they will be willing to give back to the sport for sponsorship. We would need to give them a estimate on amount of fuel the competitors will use yearly for a proper bid. Take the highest bidder and you have a Series Sponsor, who would need to include a budget for activation of the sponsorship. Then you go to the Oil manufactures ext. Plus you eliminate a tech issue. (I can tell you how to make it work later another issue, but EVERY race series does it.)This is where the manufactures involvement in is paramount. Right now they take this sort of sponsorship and use it for there own use to sponsor their race teams. Bob this is why you see the all the sponsors on the sleds and semis, the manufactures use the same way to allow Oil, Lubes, tracks, electrical, ect. type of suppliers in the door, they need to give them extra money to support the factory race teams. Simply called B to B Business to business. The same business model is used in all racing.

But you are right there needs to be a profit for all sponsor. This is the most over looked issue. I have been in this arena for years, the sponsor NEEDS to make more than they are giving before they will commit, or continue. No company just gives money away for a write off!!!! I hear that all the time, not what goes on in the real world.

I hope I am not rambling to much but if we want to make snowmobile racing better, it takes all sides(racers, Manufactures, promotors) to agree to do it. All need to compromise. Until then we will have just as we have today. If some like it they are happy if some don't they will always look to change.

TJ

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What Will Replace Champ 440

Postby Fontaine Racing » March 17th, 2013, 4:53 am

RIGHT ON!
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What Will Replace Champ 440

Postby PDRacing » March 17th, 2013, 5:07 am

Right On!
Bob V and Fast Dad :)
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What Will Replace Champ 440

Postby snowman39 » March 17th, 2013, 5:22 am

Awesome post,

Lots of great dialogue, here is my thoughts, simplistic as it may be.

the first thing that needs to be reveiwed is build a plan, reveiw what is not working, and try to figure out the problem

1) What events are a sucsess, What are just marginal?

2) What classes are growing, and what classes are minimal

3) what classes could come back

4) what classes could be merged or drop to increase sled counts

5) Vintage is big, To most spectators racing is racing, ORA Garrison was a great example, Vintage on Saturday, gone on Sunday, Space it out keep them both days. provide a two day show for all to enjoy, with full pits and lots of racing

6) Tie in the Kids programs, Again Garrison awesome!!

7) Marty Miller Idea, allow a Junior to take laps, Set aside One hour per day to allow new comers to learn about the sport.

8) We need more moms, build a plan, its not a red neck sport, keep mom involved

9) Girls 500 Class CPTC has done an amazing job, I may be buying one for my daughter as she is showing intrest.

10) more autograph session, hero cards, Auto dealer open houses, bring the kids from the schools on Friday, Kids bring parents on the weekend.

11) Build a show, Not just a race, Music, Tents, food venders

12) The hardest of all, Simplify classes, currently too many with only a few sleds, Go back in time and look at the structure. Gerry K, Brian T, and TJ you remember what there was then.

13) I will shoot my self with lucky # 13, Less races,

ORA 2 dates
CPTC 2 Dates
USSA 2 Dates
Eagle River

That is seven weekends a winter, I beleive all could afford to travel and do all events.

Go team Go Bash me now or Not,

I would suggest a meeting with CPTC, ORA, USSA, and Eagle River, Build a plan, Take it to ISR and build to the future.

I am prepared to help, I wonder how many open minded people would as well.

It is our responsability to build and keep the sport alive.

Oh By the way, Champ is great, only look at combinned weight, Leave it alone. Trust me based on thirty champs running in Canada and the US, there is enough motors to race with, imagine how many the Big three built

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What Will Replace Champ 440

Postby Spy-Guy 74 » March 17th, 2013, 5:50 am

Guy, I'm sure not going to bash you I respect you too much for that. The only one I question is number 13. Could the ORA or USSA survive just having two races a winter? I guess they'll have to chime in on that but I have my doubts. Really no problem for the Champ guys, except maybe for the ones that travel out east for a race or two or even three sometimes.

I think it may be a problem for some of the feeder classes, some seem more geared for a regional program and maybe won't go for the extra travel time. Just the way it seems to me at this time. I guess we would or for that matter we do, but don't think everybody else would at this time.

ORA or USSA what are your thoughts on this, could this work out for you or your members at this time? Old man weather sometimes throws a monkey wrench into our racing plans too, or at least the last few years.
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What Will Replace Champ 440

Postby crwdog » March 17th, 2013, 7:27 am

ORA is an non profit 501c3 org for the racers, by the racers. I am speaking for my self here, and this is not the official view of the ORA as the board has not discussed anything. BUT... ORA is successful as we do what our racers want. Of the 150+ drivers that make up group, very few ever travel outside our region. Minus going to Eagle, of course. ORA is a professionally ran show, but maintains a grass roots regional feel. When you look at racing here in Minnesota, there are really 4 regional groups. These are ORA, SLEDS, Long Lake, CMPR. All exist as they cator to the racers in those regions. Yes, there is some crossover with drivers, but not a lot.

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