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Northern Skunk - WSA question answered

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Northern Skunk - WSA question answered

Postby ArcticEd » March 10th, 2004, 6:07 pm

Yamanator.. So I'm ignorant? Thanks for your endorsement. Go to the WSA website and look under Rider profiles, and then have them sorted by BRAND.... There are exactly 22 riders registered who list Yamaha as their brand of choice. I looked, not just "Pulled out of the air"as you accuse me of.... And as far as I can see, from the info you gave, the WSA isn't dealing with anyone who may or may not be trying to race the RX1 in the mod class because apparantly they haven't HAD to. Your ranting about no one making a place for a sled on the starting line that no one has seriously tried to even get there. The "Bulky and Slow" blurb that you keep refering to isn't anything that I've said, nor even typed before now, it's taken right from an add straight from Yamaha's own advertising department. So you can get off your high horse with me, pally. If you want to take your RX1 to a WSA race (Their sanction overlaps both Rock Maple and The Big East tour) and try to sign up, I'm sure that they'll fit you in somewhere... There are trail and beginner classes galore. But you're comparing apples to oranges by trying to lump the RX into a bunch of snocross sleds.. different animal entirely. If you think that anyone who's been on the starting line more than once is intimidated by another sled sitting there next to them, I think you'll find that you're sadly mistaken... It's pretty much rider against rider and rider against course.... But then again, you know all this, right??? The point I was trying to make before you got your panties all in a knot was that if there was any kind of concerted interest by anyone in campaigning a 4 cylinder four stroke trail sled in snocross, they'de surely find a place for it.... AD Boivin INVENTED the SnoBike class, funded it as an exhibition class for a year, and ultimately made it a points division. Yamaha, as a corporation, doesn't support SnoCross anymore, the WSA hasn't had anyone trying to race one, so why do you feel the need to browbeat this issue??? I'd like to poll all the RX1 owners here present.... How many of you would like to race your sled in SnoCross???? I'll be interested to see the results. If you're so dead set on making this sled a presence in snocross, get yourself a license and hit the track.........Good luck. But for the present, you're making a whole lot of noise looking for the answer to a question that no one has even asked. Tell you what, he next time you go to a snocross, wander into the pits and ask the guys who are actually racing how many of them would like to hit the track on this sled, and then come back and post the results. To anyone else reading this, sorry it went so long........Please excuse my IGNORANCE.
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Northern Skunk - WSA question answered

Postby M10rules » March 10th, 2004, 6:21 pm

Yamaha shows no interest in WSA SnoX, so why should they go out of their way to make an effort into finding where it fits? I'm sure Yamaha would just have to ask and something would get done to fit them in.

You also have to look at what its going to take to limit these motors. In 2 strokes you have porting and pipes to change power. Easy enough to modify and to control. What are the limits going to be for cam profiles? how about valves/cylinder? Its more then saying the RX-1 is allowed to race in open class. Cause where does that leave the other 4 strokes out there? But they also can't have a rule saying 1000cc 4stroke max; cause a year down the road someone will put a huge lift and be cranking out 200hp and now you are way over the "Open Class Sleds".

My answer to you guys that want to have all of these race organizations do all of these changes is to stop your *****ing and whining and come up with a RESONABLE alternative and lobby it through. If that don't work and you know so much more then anyone that runs the races then start your own series. Putting NASCAR style rules in place is all fine but who is going to put the time into developing those rules and enforcing them? The current rule is 800cc, if Yamaha don't want to play by the rules to bad for them. They have the R&D budget to build a competitive sled if they really want to.
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Northern Skunk - WSA question answered

Postby NorthernSkunk » March 11th, 2004, 12:07 am

Why couldn't they class the sleds by horse power?
Na i'm done with you, your to much of an ass for me!

Your on a need to know basis and since you never come out here you don't need to know....
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Northern Skunk - WSA question answered

Postby Yamanator » March 11th, 2004, 2:49 am

Thats what I was wondering Skunk. From all reports Yamaha did make an appeal to WSA for a HP rating instead of cc size. I wish I could find a link that has the things ISR has done in other racing venues.

BigD. I agree with you somewhat. It's much easier to just ignore the problem than spend time on placing something that probably won't be that popular in snowcross as it is. Problem is who is going to get the attention of the WSA? The sport is entrenched enough in their current footsteps that you aren't going to get a pro rider thats gonna drop his sponsors and team for a long shot crusade in getting the four strokes included. As far as Yamaha expecting them to accomidate them specifically... Well yes and no. They are pretty much pioneering the four stroke field here. Apparently they feel that for 120 hp they need a 1000cc motor (vector/rage). They may have tested a 700 or 800 four stroke motor and found it lacking in power (much like the Cat 660 before the turbo)... Now say they did make one of those. Would it really be competitive in the open mod category? Most likely not. We'd be back at the problem we have now because it might be more suitable to the 440 class and would require special placement like the 1000cc sled would. You can't compare apples to apples with two strokes and four strokes. Like Motocross allowances need to be made. 4 Strokes are breaking into the market.


MM10 thats why I'm posting this. If I could I'd get a petition going. Not that it would probably do any good.

[quote]The current rule is 800cc, if Yamaha don't want to play by the rules to bad for them. They have the R&D budget to build a competitive sled if they really want to.[/quote]

This is the thing... Play by the rules? The rules were based on two stroke technology. 1000cc stock four stroke has around the power of an 800 two stroke. Again if Yamaha were to build an 800 four stroke it would probably need to be running in the 500 440 class. Do I think it's coming? Yeah probably they are going to phaze out the Venom most likely next year and have an entry level sled. Problem is that they will still require a re-classification of that sled if it were to race. You can't "play by the rules" with a four stroke when the rules are set up for two strokes. Would it really be that hard to let a couple in to a few races and see how they do?

MM10[quote]Yamaha shows no interest in WSA SnoX, so why should they go out of their way to make an effort into finding where it fits? I'm sure Yamaha would just have to ask and something would get done to fit them in.[/quote]

Actually Yamaha still sponsors the Vernon Downs WSA snowcross races. As far as sponsoring a team? First you gotta have them let you compete. Then you have to find someone thats skilled enough and is going to take the chance on you. Most pro's and semi-pros aren't going to step away from their sponsors and take that chance... So we have a catch 22.


Mainly I'm posting this to get some support. As much as I bash arctic cat, doo and polaris (Pol's probably being my second favorite brand) I still want to see each of them succeed in generating more people for our sport. Perhaps Motocross is so much bigger because the fans are much more cohesive and the promoters of the sport have their stuff together. Perhaps its because they get the full support of their fans in this.

I'd enter my RX-1 tomorro if I could... Thats why I contacted WSA because I didn't want to have to buy a Polaris in order to race...
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Northern Skunk - WSA question answered

Postby Norsk » March 11th, 2004, 4:03 am

I am all for Yamaha getting back into WSA! It is so much better for the sport, having all manufacturers involved!


However, there is no way that the current line-up from Yamaha, with there current fourstrokes, would ever even compete in snowcross! With the grueling courses that they race on, weight is far more important than horsepower, and that is why a 440 stock sled from any manufacturer can be competitive in Open class racing! If you put a RX-1 or Vector engine in any chassis, with all the extra weight that is needed for these engines (exhaust, cooling, OIL), you still won't compete with the lighter engine and quicker response throttle response of a 2-stroke. This is not true (totally) in other forms of racing, as Yamaha fourstrokes have been somewhat competitve in ovals (Soo and Pro-ice Extreme), but if they have a horsepower advantage! Putting a RX-1, in stock class racing against 600 cc 2-strokes is a 20 to 30 horse power advantage, and I say fine, so be it! If Yamaha wants to put a horsepower rule in instead of cc's, even better for the competition, as they would be severely at a disadvatntage then! If that is done, are they supposed to bring a dynomometer to the races each and every week, put each sled on it and then seal the engine compartment so that the "oh so honest" teams can't touch anything and tune the sled to above that level of horsepower?


Bring your RX-1 to the snocross track, enter it into anyclass that they will allow it, and they WILL find one (trail class), prove to all of us doubters that it can be done and be a winner, and I will relish in my stupidity and say "I WAS WRONG"!


If Yamaha wanted any part of snocross, they would have riders willing to give them a try! It is maybe only the top, well sponsored guys or girls that might not, but if you flash a good contract in front of them, someone would bite!
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Northern Skunk - WSA question answered

Postby Bunzai » March 11th, 2004, 5:23 am

If any of you guys think that WSA does not want these Yamahas racing, think again. Your getting all bent out of shape about something you know nothing about. The question comes up every year about how to include these sleds in sno cross racing and the question goes around the table, " who here has a circuit where someone wants to run one" Guess what....no one has anyone!
Chris Vincent ( he drove the proto type) said that they were far to heavy and until the weight drops THEY WILL NOT BE COMPETITIVE.
Snowmobile racing will benefit tremendously when the day comes that a formula is devised to make these sleds race legal, but it is going to take time. Don't think the other manufactures are just going to roll over and let this thing run with out some homework being done. WSA has had contact with AMA to try and decide how to make the cc/horsepower deal work. One thing you will not see (it's been tried before and failed) is a horsepower limit.
My point being is that there is still a move afoot to get these things racing, it's going to take time and if you can't understand that, your being very short sighted and suffer from tunnel vision.

Why would you want to race this sled anyways? It would get it's but kicked all around the track.....
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Northern Skunk - WSA question answered

Postby M10rules » March 11th, 2004, 5:48 am

Yamanator, contact the WSA regional director for your area and let him know you want to run your RX-1 in Begineer Open. Money talks to these guys!! If Yamaha wanted a Pro Racer all they have to do is be top bidder, its been proved year after year. Who ever spends the most gets the best.

What I meant by Yamaha playing by the rules is that if they want back into SnoX so bad build a 2 stroke. If anyone of the other manufacturers were losing money on it, they wouldn't be building it. There race budgets might show a loss, but its madee up by even bigger gains elsewhere. Every single one of them uses the chassis in production models. They use the crankcase assembly in their 500 motors. Hoods, bellypans.......Plus anything wild and new is coming actually just relieving some of the engineering budget so it looks better. The Diamond Drive from Cat was tested in SnoX for over 5 years now. That might have come out of the race budget but it was for R&D.

If Yamaha cared about SnoX so bad they would have a sled racing.

As for Vernon Downs, Yamaha was not listed as a sponser this year on the WSA website. I know in the past they were but not anymore.
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Northern Skunk - WSA question answered

Postby XtremeIce » March 11th, 2004, 6:39 am

well i know this for sure one can race the RX1 in Xtreme Ice and also Hill X, we took the same formaula moto x used and determined that the RX1 would be equal in 2 stroke cc in the 600 classes. I thought that that was to be used for all forms of racing. But i guess i am mistaken as far as sno x goes.
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Northern Skunk - WSA question answered

Postby NorthernSkunk » March 11th, 2004, 6:45 am

And what formula does moto-x use exactly?
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Northern Skunk - WSA question answered

Postby Yamanator » March 11th, 2004, 7:24 am

Skunk it uses 2 to 1 roughly. 125's run with 250 fours. 250's run with 450 fours.

M10 I plan on contacting the regional person. I just got the feedback from the main WSA office yesterday. I'm hoping someone will let me in. For anyone in the Central NY area that knows of J&J motorsports they have been in contact with WSA about this as well. I think they have a couple riders that would like to compete with the four stroke. Is it going to be competitive? Who knows? Who really cares? Some of us just want to race our yamahas. Thats the whole point. When the RX-1 first came out in 03 they demo'd it at Vernon Downs on the track. The rider was pretty good and was hittin the back triple like it was nothing. I know it can at least get around the track heh.

Extreme is there any competitive hillcross in the NY area for beginners? I know their limit (from the X-games) is 1000 cc's and you can mod I think.

Edit: M10 Also I hear what you are saying about making a two stroke to compete but the problem is would it really help their sales? They are pushing 4 strokes as the so called wave of the future. Making one two stroke for race only wouldn't really help them much when their whole lineup is 4 strokes. They dropped 30 pounds this year in the RX-1. Thats pretty good if you think about it. Not many can shave 30 pounds off that easy. Theres even more mods that you can do to reduce the weight. Each year I think we are going to see more and more improvements. Why not start now with incorporating them?
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