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Postby ice_racer_69 » March 14th, 2005, 12:42 pm

Whens the meeting?? Any big changes planned for this year?? Is the champ weight limit stayin at 375? Any new ideas for classes, like a champ 600? (hint, hint) Outlaw22??? That "31" Car???? Anyone?????
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Postby watcher » March 14th, 2005, 1:50 pm

The ISR rules meeting is April 30 for Snow-X and May 1 for Ovals in Milwaukee, WI.

Stock classes is most likely the biggest topic. Champ 440 leave alone? What about the Open 600 class? what changes? Sprint classes?
Sure like the two new USSA classes this year "JR 1 Sprint 380" and "Jr 3 Sprint 600" Classes.

What would you (everyone) like changed or left alone? Now is the time to open up.

USSA has there general meeting April 2 at Watersmeet Mi. at noon, with election for the Board, and the Awards Banquet at 7:00 PM.

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Postby WPT » March 14th, 2005, 2:31 pm


Drop 440 Semi-Pro Sprint
Drop 440 Pro-Sprint
Drop 600 Open Sprint

Reason: lack of 440 engines available from manufactures. Also shortage on the used market as well.
Splitting of entries just creates more classes with fewer entries.

Replace with new plate form of 600 Sprint classes

Junior 3 Sprint 600
Semi-Pro Sprint 600 (new) 75% pay pack
Pro-Sprint 600 (new) 100% payback, plus bonus money,
every driver in the final gets something for payback.

Can consolidate into two main Sprint classes that cover almost everything in the country. 440 engines have proven that they can complete very well with any 600 program
Goal: Standardize equipment to lower costs. Drivers then may run less classes, but may run more heats/laps in the given class with only one entry fee.
Top four drivers in points from 440 Pro Sprint and 600 Open Sprint can not run Semi-Pro.

Ask ISR to drop 440 stock sprint as a core class. It is only run in the east.
Ask ISR to ad 600 Pro Sprint as Core class.
Ask ISR to drop all references to 500 Sprint class.
We must standardize our rules from east to west.


Junior 3 Sprint, Semi-Pro Sprint and Pro Sprint 600


General Rules

1. Sprint 600 may be production based or a purpose built chassis limited to single track snowmobiles.
2. Chassis modifications allowed unless specifically prohibited in these rules.
3. The snowmobile must meet all applicable criteria of the ISR General and Safety rules sections of the current ISR rulebook.
4. Maximum overall width is 45 inches.
5. Minimum weight is 350 pounds.
6. Engine, chassis, and hood need not match.
7. Engine must be an air cooled (either fan or free-air) from a stock qualified snowmobile.
8. Engine modification allowed unless specifically prohibited in these rules.

1. Maximum displacement is 600cc with an overbore allowance of 2% (12cc) Stock qualified engines of lesser displacement may be over bored to the class limit.
2. The engine must remain air cooled. No liquid cooling allowed.
3. The crankcase, crankshaft and cylinders may be modified.
4. Crankshaft stroke must be OEM for the engine. The OEM connecting rod center to center must also be maintained.
5. The cylinders and crankcase must maintain the OEM orientation in the chassis.
6. The OEM intake concept must be maintained. Piston Port, Piston Port with Reed Assist, Reed Valve, Rotary Valve may be modified or altered but not replaced with different intake concept.
7. Only one (1) carburetor per cylinder. No Shared air intakes, or boost bottles.
8. Mikuni round slide carbs only. Maximum bore diameter is 34.5mm. No aftermarket modifications of flow design, jet passages, or atomization effects will be allowed to the carburetor.
9. 34 millimeter VM Mikuni round slide carburetors with no modifications are required for the class.
10. OEM cooling concept must be maintained.
11. The OEM wye pipe must be used but may be modified. A single exhaust pipe must be used regardless of number of cylinders. The exhaust pipe must meet current sound limitations and be effectively silenced.
12. Exhaust must not extend more than 3" (inches) beyond the periphery of the chassis.
13. Any OEM Ignition and it may be modified

1. Any drive system may be used.

1. Minimum of 2" (inches) of useable vertical travel must be maintained.

1. Track must be 103" minimum length, and may be cleated or rubber composition.
2. Traction products must meet current ISR rules.
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Postby bub37 » March 14th, 2005, 4:50 pm

WPT, your concept on the Sprint class is a step in the right direction.
If we don't get the Sprint class straightened out we are probably going to lose it, and that's a step backwards for oval racing.

All Racing organizations need the class, there are too many differant versions of the class and too many differant variations of the rules (440 stock motor, 440 mod motor, 500 motors and now 600's, Pro's and Semi Pro's etc.)

The rules must be like CHAMP 440,the same across the country so there is uniformity and consistancy of the class - this is a must, then the SPRINT class will grow again to where it used to be. I remember quite a few years back at Eagle River there was close to 40 Sprinters.

At Beausejour there was only a Semi Pro-Sprint class, NOT enough entries in Pro-Sprint. I talked to alot of racers and there is lots of interest in the class with racers who now run Sprint,racers who used to run Sprint, and racers who want to jump up to Sprint,and a couple would even jump down, but there has to be rule consistancy with USSA, WSA PRO-ICE and EASTERN PRO TOUR.
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Postby bmf » March 14th, 2005, 5:55 pm

Champ 440 should still be th main class. sprint 380f,600f,440L or 600L,and 600 open. Also I think some tpye of spec class[sealed engine and restricted chassis]. No tube bulk heads in Sprint classes. No stock classes. There has not been a stock class for the last two years so why call it stock. Remember the new racer. Pro clases 600f,champ and 600. Semi-pro on all the classes.
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Postby ice_racer_69 » March 15th, 2005, 2:29 am

[quote] No stock classes. There has not been a stock class for the last two years so why call it stock. Remember the new racer. Pro clases 600f,champ and 600. Semi-pro on all the classes.[/quote]

So your saying get rid of the stock program all together?? what purpose would that serve? Where are the junior and sport drivers going to go?? straight to the champ class?? Not EVERYONE wants to drive a champ sled and many don't have the experience.

I think maybe a name change to Imp. Stock or something along those lines would work well. I also think something needs to be done to limit the number of stock classes, but still giving the drivers the same amount of track time. The purpose behind having so many classes is simply to give racers time on the track, they spent a lot of money to get there, so let them race. BUT for the fans a sport 440, sport 600, sport open, semi pro 440 semi pro 600 pro 440 pro 500 and pro 600 class is just to much. Consolidate some of the classes, i say. Combine the 3 classes to make to classes, think of some name to call them.

Another thing i beleive isr should look at is tech. Teching sleds needs to be done. Period. I don't care if you have a 2 stroke or 4 stroke. It's getting to the point, now, that the 4 stroke guys are getting all of that figured out and figuring out ways of "going faster" and at ER the tech guys kinda just scratched their heads and said, ah ok? you can go through. And not to just single out eagle river, but it happened at beausejour earlier in the season to. I also think that the race associations should concur as to what should be made mandatory in tech. You go to one track they emphasize one thing, you go to another track, ran by a different association, they emphasize another thing. Some times, a racer doesn't even KNOW he's cheating!!! (...snow flaps at beausejour....)
AND SOME TIMES THERE IS NO TECH AT ALL. Which I really hope a certain association does something about, because that simple fact alone, in my opinion, is killing the stock classes.

Another thing that needs to be done at the ISR meeting this year: There is only 4 Oval circuits MIRA, WSA, USSA, and EPT. I believe to qualify as a circuit, you must have at least 3 races, do you not? I just don't think for the EPT to brek into 3 circuits is really fair.

ALSO: this would be a VERY opportune time for all of the circuits, since they are all going to have to be in the same room anyways, to get together and work out some kind of deal to have certain weekends open. Everyone leave a WSA weekend, a MIRA weekend, a EPT weekend and a USSA weekend open, and the obvious weekend of Eagle River. I know people say it can't be done because of sponsorships and whatnot, but when it's THIS far in advance, that simply can't be true.

Thanks for listening to my rant-
Chris Broermann
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Postby Flatout » March 15th, 2005, 2:58 am

My idea is to reduce the number of classes and define the differences so that it isnt just the same sleds runing in multiple classes. Here are my ideas:

1 Pro champ: Max 600 cc 34 mm carbs open chassis min weight 375 lb
( 3 cyl 4 strokes are allowed a 1.66-1 cc ratio advantage but must run 28mm carbs)

2 Semi-pro champ: Max 440 cc 34 mm carbs open chassis min weight 375

3 Pro-Sprint Max 600cc fan 34 carbs open chassis single pipe min 350 lb

4 Semi-pro Sprint: Max 440cc fan 34 carbs open chassis single pipe 350 lb

5 Pro-stock: Max 600 cc 34 carbs stock motor, 500 min production chassis min 425 lb (3 cyl 4 strokes are allowed a 1.66 cc-1 advantage ratio but must run 28mm carbs)

6 Semi-pro stock: max 440 cc 34 carbs stock motor, 500 min production chassis min 425 lb

7 Vintage IFS: 81 or older factory built IFS sleds (includes the Chaparall IFS sleds) must run era hoods and motors

8 Vintage leaf spring: max 440cc Factory produced leaf spring race sles

9 Vintage open: Includes factory built and one of a kind rigid spindle sleds, no cc limit free air motors only.

10 120: up to 14, No chassis or engine mods, spec studs, spec carbides

11 Junior : 15 to 18 Max 600 fan, stock motor stock chassis

12 Trail stock 500: Spec carbides spec studs no mods other than stock adjustments

13 Trail stock open: Spec carbides spec suds mods other than stock adjustments

You are only allowed to jump up one class.

Lets try to make it more simple!
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Postby WPT » March 15th, 2005, 3:19 am

Thanks guys for your opinions, lets keep this going.

I think we all agree we must have standardize rules across the country.

Goal is growth in oval racing.
Must be affordable.
Must be safe.

Champ should certainly be the Premier class. Rules are stable, we have players from three manufactures and even more race shops.
We have Pro-Champ and Semi-Pro Champ.
One problem is correctly defining a semi-pro driver.
Seems to be good concept just needs a better ID on Semi-Pro.

Sprint is an absolute mess. Currently three racing associations and three sets of rules.
We need one set of standards everywhere.

Sprint is a great racing platform.
Low cost engines that are not expense to race prepare.
Engines do not require very much maintainance at all.
Great performance per investment.
There can be four brands racing.
Great stepping stone to Champ.
For the dollar there is no better.

Now why can't we get together on this.
To many people supporting only thier garage and not looking at the big picture.

My 600 Sprint proposal brought one set of rules in two levels.
Semi-Pro and Pro

Let's talk about 600 Open.
What the hell was some one thing when this was put in?
You say you want Champ to be the big deal. Explain to me how fans and are not going to want the bigger motors, the deeper sound and the more speed.
I think it s just too fast. We got rid of F3 because of this. Now we have better chassis. Think back, why does a Champ sled only allow a 34mm carb?
If it is to stay, it would be my opinion that you limit it's potential before some one gets really hurt.
Just like Sprint, give it a 34mm carb size and a stock Y pipe. You can do what ever you want in between. Other wise your Champ program will get over run.

Stock classes:
I have heard two schools of thought.
1. get rid of the 500 build special sleds and go back to, buy it off the dealer floor type machine. all stock
2. Open chassis like Champ, with a stock engine & pipe. Hood must match engine and have Brand logos on it.

Junior Program
This year in USSA they ran a 380 Stock Sprint class.
It was great. More coming for next year. Drivers lie to smaller sled because they fit on them easier and they are much easier to drive.
Also ran a 600 Junoir Sprint. After seeing this, why would you want to put a yougster on a big machine that the Pro riders are struglling with? Junior Sprint should be adopted all over.

These are my opinions.
ISR needs to have some balls and demand this.
Get rid of the specialty classes.
Let the games begin.
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Postby AHF928 » March 15th, 2005, 4:27 am

I understand the desire for one set of rules, but the fact is what is popular in one circuit is NOT in another.

Pro level should alwasy be the same, but there needs to be lattitude for regional differences and taste.

In the midwest modified fans are popular, on there EPT there is only 1.

My opinion, and this comes from talking to spectators with No vested interest in the equipment is to make the class structure simple to follow, non repetative and to forget references to engine size in the top classes.

Maybe 1 in 10 NASCAR fans can correctly state the exact legal cubic inch of the engines used, why do we bother? In Stock maybe but after that it makes no difference. Announcers should be pushing HP and speed, lap times etc.

As far as a class structure if it were my sole choice:

CHAMP: Leave it alone for at least 2 more years.

Semi-Pro Champ: Create a written list of rulesa for who is semi pro and just how and when it will happen. Base it on career wins, pointe earned in a lifetime (like motocross) but make sure it is easy to follow and a driver or team will know when the move happens. No voting or annual decision. A driver could appeal if his/her circustances change.

Sprint: Keep it simple and cheap
Pro-Sprint: 440 Liquid stock engine,34 mm carbs, stock Wye pipe, open single exhaust, any hood, Champ Chassis rules except 15"x116" tracks, 375 lb limit. Allow pro Stock sleds if they are ISR legal stock. Allow Semi-Pro sprint legal machines.
Semi Pro Sprint: 600 Mod fan, single pipe, stock wye, same chassis rules as Pro-Sprint.
Stock Sprint: 440 or 600 Fan stock engine, stock wye, single pipe.

Stock: Pro Stock liquid 600cc max, Pro-Stock Fan 600cc max
Stock 500, Stock 600, Stock Fan 600

Juniors: We have had Champ Junior( Sprint 380max) for years, no rule changes needed, Junior classes as listed by ISR cover whomever may arrive, run them ALL if that many kids show up. We need them.

Vintage: I have no clue, but they are growing faster than all other classes, they need some structure, but not a lot of limits.

Thats my opinion.
Ovals rule
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Postby ice_racer_69 » March 15th, 2005, 4:43 am


Stock: Pro Stock liquid 600cc max, Pro-Stock Fan 600cc max
Stock 500, Stock 600, Stock Fan 600


1 Pro champ: Max 600 cc 34 mm carbs open chassis min weight 375 lb
( 3 cyl 4 strokes are allowed a 1.66-1 cc ratio advantage but must run 28mm carbs)

2 Semi-pro champ: Max 440 cc 34 mm carbs open chassis min weight 375


I think, and again this is my personal opinion, that if you have difference between the Pro class and Semi-Pro class, that you make the leap from semi-pro to pro that much more difficult, and that much more expensive. For a guy, like myself, that wants to get their foot in the door in the pro class, that to buy a 600cc champ motor is not feasible (sp?).

As far as the stock fan class, i think with the number of entries there are currently, ONE class "Stock 600 Fan" would be more then sufficient. Top 3 in Pro Stock or Champ can't run it.

ALSO- rumors circulating around for the past few years about the factories abolishing the 440's and going to 600's. Any truth to this?? If so, we will need to accomodate for that in all classes across the board.
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