NY went to sep fees for Club and Non Club Members

[Yoo]

After thorough discussion on this topic earlier, the moderator of this sight has released the news that New York will have separate Trail User Fees for Club and Non Club members. That's two states that have now gone this route...could it be that this trend simply makes sense?

[*RABID]

NOPE

[M10rules]

And NH Supreme Court just ruled against a club and groomer operator in a lawsuit where a 15 year old sledder ran into a parked groomer...should MI follow this also?

How about the 55 mph speed limit on ALL state trails that NY just passed? Should MI do that also?

I'm not against giving club members a discount but MI can not follow what the other states have done...not all clubs in MI maintain trails...and not all trails are maintained by clubs with memberships...how do you account for those exceptions?

[M10rules]

[b]Snowmobile Club Liable in Trail Fatality

Powersports Business
Tuesday July 19, 2005

The New Hampshire Supreme Court has ruled against a non-profit snowmobile club and its trail groomer in a lawsuit stemming from an accident in 2001 that killed a 15-year-old sledder on a trail which runs from Portland, Maine, through New Hampshire to Montreal, Quebec. It is a ruling that could affect other powersports trails throughout the nation.
Brody Kenison died after he ran into a stationary grooming machine owned by the Waumbek Methna Snowmobile Club.
Kenison's family sued the club and the groomer, Andre Dubois, in 2003. The Kenison family's lawyer said Dubois was taking a break from grooming and had parked the machine below the crest of a hill, in a spot unseen to snowmobilers traversing the trail.
The Waumbek Methna Snowmobile Club has maintained the trail for over 20 years.
The club and Dubois said they were immune from liability under state law because they qualified as occupants of the land. A lower court agreed, so the family appealed.
The state Supreme Court, in a 5-0 ruling issued July 18, disagreed with Waumbek's characterization, saying the club and groomer could not be regarded as occupants because they didn't have the authority to give people permission to use the land. [/b]


Michigan has a law that basically is "Assumed Liability"...which means that if you ride a snowmobile you are assuming there are dangers out there and they are your responsibilty to ride safely. Well its not normal to park below the crest of the hill...I have been stuck there several times...

The idea is not to follow but to come up with ideas that suit your state and system. Michigan has always looked at what other states are doing and will adopt a good idea and make it work for them. Think by them not yet adopting a club discount style system they see to many flaws in making it work for Michigan.

[*RABID]

NH speed limit is 45 mph with violation requiring a classroom visit and possible loss of registration rights (perpetually).
We also have an 'assumed liability' clause; the groomer and club are being sued for negligence... such as an individual blocking the trails in other ways would.
We had a death last year were three people blocked the trail with a tree... they were prosecuted in both criminal and civil courts.

[Yoo]

M10 Rules, what does the tragic accident with the 15 yo have to do with this topic. Why not then bring up where Hawaii doesn't have snowmobile trails, so should Michigan follow Hawaii and not have snowmobile trails. Your talking about apples and oranges. I simply brought up how one state is trying to entice snowmobilers to get involved in a TRAIL GROOMING CLUB. It's easy to have on a computer the list of clubs that have a contract with the DNR for Trail Maintenance, and all the clubs would have to do is submit to the DNR the list of members, and/or have the club give a state certified membership card. Similar to what Michigan Drivers get from their Insurance Company to state they have the State Required Insurance on their Motor Vehicle. It's not as complicated as you may see it.

[alleycat35]

Does the state of NY maintain all the trails or do the clubs do it?Here in Michigan the State is responsible for the trails. They may contract them to a club but ultimatly the state is responsible.IMO this whole subject should be droped as far as Mich is concerned. Don't give the nuts in Lansing another way to milk the people out of more $ for nothing.

[FreezurBurnt]

Yoo you are talking to a brick wall with many on here

aka it is their god given right to ride where they want and Fock the rest attitude that prevails

They all seems to love th WELFARE system of paying for trails aka State run trail program

[M10rules]

HELL YA I LIKE THE STATE RUN TRAIL SYSTEM IN MICHIGAN!!! Its one of the best...I believe 100% in keeping managing duties (Spliting up trail money and determing where to put it) out of the hands of the clubs. The MDNR works very closely with MSA to keep everyone honest.

The funniest part to this all, is that the change would be done to trail permits...ALOT easier to make such a change to then registration (change like this to registration would take 3 years to become 100%, and then they would have to change registration to every year instead of every 3 years as it is now). With that being said, there are alot of the hardest working volunteers on the trail system that out of habit (and knowing the money is going to good use) buy 5 or so extra Trail Permits every year. And if they are riding with someone who doesn't have one for some reason will give one to that person or whatever the cost of it orginally was...regardless if that other person helps out on the trails at all.

Whos to decide what counts as being a member? I was part of Cadillac Winter Promotions but they don't have a membership. We had some come out and help in the fall that were part of Cadillac Winter Warriors, but that is not a state grooming club. And if you leave it upto the clubs then someone in Western UP might get the "Club Member" price for only spending 4 hours that year helping out while someone in SW Michigan spends a weekend with a club helping but because they don't pay membership dues the club won't give them the "Club Member" pricing...doesn't quite seem fair does it??

YOO, if you want to get a definete answer to whether MI will ever consider this go to a Snowmobile Trails Advisory Committe Meeting and ask Bill Manson and the board your question...

As for what that story has to do with this topic...what happens with one state doesn't have **** to do with another...just like manufacturering...if you follow you will never lead. MI has done alot to put great original ideas into motion...and the trail system shows it. MI has more registrared sleds then any other state, they get alot of the Indiana, Ohio, Illinios, and even Iowa :P traffic added in and they are proving with very little cost to each sledder they can make great trails!

[Yoo]

FreezerBurnt...well said.

M10 Rules, since I openly have my name on this, it is easy to find out if I am active in contact with the DNR. I talk often to the DNR in my line of work, and that is whom I would talk too if this concept is something that would be generally accepted. Repeating...generally accepted.

I am not advocating that Trail User Permits in Michigan be increased. As long as the money is in the Snowmobile Trail Fund to continue the excellent job the CLUBS are doing, then leave it as it is. However if the time ever comes where the fund needs an increase, an idea that deserves discussion is what New York and New Hampshire is doing...that's all.

I believe strongly in keeping an open mind.