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Outlaw 600 - Progress Thread - HRE

Outlaw 600 - Progress Thread - HRE

Postby JHooper2 » February 25th, 2011, 1:38 am

We're going to use this thread to update the latest changes and rules. We'll also update the page on our website as much as possible.

200+ Laps on it last weekend. Survey says... we've got a winner!
Gary Moyle (Champ & Pro Open Champion)
Aaron Fellows (Former Pro Champ Racer, Nascar Late Model Champion).
Tim Hibbard (Formula 500 & Vintage Eagle River Champion)

The machine took it in stride, the ice held up great and a general good time was had by all.... and there was much rejoicing.

Pictures updated on this thread and on our site:
www.hooperraceengines.com -- click the Outlaw 600 Link.
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Outlaw 600 - Progress Thread - HRE

Postby jhooper/HRE » February 25th, 2011, 2:11 am

OK, this is just a brief overview of what we know so far: This race sled will have 3 skis and 1 track, the driver will sit in an aluminum seat w/5 point harness and arm restraints, inside a roll cage located to the left of the track. The front end will be a 4-bar/trailing arm design around 50 inches wide, the 3rd ski will be under the left rear corner to support the weight of the driver + roll cage. The engine will be mounted in front of the track/tunnel. We will use a 2001-2006 Polaris 600 twin engine and drive clutch that will be mounted backwards {clutches on the right}, directly in front of the track. Engine and clutches will be normal rotation and we will use a jackshaft thru the tunnel and a gearbox to reverse rotation. Bottom end of engine will be stock. Top end may be modified Internally, you may remove or add lettering on the outside but no material may be added onto the outside. We will have straight,twin,stamped,spec pipes exiting over the tunnel. Please don't pick this apart yet. I will post a much more complete ROUGH draft of ALL rules by 2/28/11. John H.
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Outlaw 600 - Progress Thread - HRE

Postby ck_cat » February 25th, 2011, 5:26 am

Any ballpark cost on buying a ready to race (minus tuning) sled?
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Outlaw 600 - Progress Thread - HRE

Postby jhooper/HRE » February 25th, 2011, 6:49 am

Good question, I may not be the best guy to answer this one. Dave O. could maybe give you a better estimate. I don't plan to build complete sleds to sell but I will have some components available.
I have decided to build this first sled using an approach kinda like an average guy with some fabricating ability would do {even though I could build every peice from scratch}. I bought a 2001 sled for $1400 which will supply: engine, clutches, jackshaft, shocks, brakes and possibly spindles + struts. I ordered a rear skid and 3 skis from Wahl for $1600. The seat, harness and wheel will cost around $400. The tunnel is being bent by a local shop for around $300. Track w/studs $1000. Tanks, pumps, switches etc $400. Gear box and drive shaft $700. Exhaust pipes $600. Cooling system $300. Bearings, radius rods w/ends, sway bar etc $350. Tubing and sheet metal for fabricating chassis $800. Lots of misc stuff $1000.
So it looks to me like a guy with average fabricating skills could build one for around $9000. Certainly a guy like Howard or Dave O. could build one for thousands less by scavenging used stuff and fabricating almost everything themselves BUT it takes a ton of time and talent.
I would expect someone will be able to build and sell these somewhat "race ready" for $18,000- $20,000.
This is still considerably less than a competitive Champ and the way we are designing these rules you should never need to build/buy another one to keep up with the competition. An Outlaw sled built the first season will still be competitive 3 or 4 years from now.
I will do my best to take pics and document my building process and make it available to everyone FREE {WOOPS! my greedy alter-ego won't like this}:) John H.
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Outlaw 600 - Progress Thread - HRE

Postby ck_cat » February 25th, 2011, 8:19 am

Thanks for the breakdown. I guess it's time to accept the fact that this world just isn't inexpensive any more:(
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Outlaw 600 - Progress Thread - HRE

Postby jhooper/HRE » February 26th, 2011, 3:00 am

I don't want to discourage anyone but I was trying to be completely honest and realistic. You certainly can build one of these for around $5000 if you are frugal and capable of in depth fabrication and maybe someone will offer these for sale for $12,000, it just depends on the hourly wage they want to make.
I kept track of every penny spent building my last Champ in 2006 and was a little surprised when it added up to almost 20,000 without figuring in the hundreds of hours spent. Yes you can build one cheaper but if you want the best you can build within the current Champ rules you could easily spend even more on carbon fiber and titanium parts. John H.
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Outlaw 600 - Progress Thread - HRE

Postby jhooper/HRE » February 28th, 2011, 4:50 am

OK, this is what I have so far. Remember this is just a rough draft, a lot more detail will be added when finished. Please feel free to make suggestions, very little is carved in stone yet.
BREIF DESCRIPTION- All OUTLAW 600 sleds must have 1 rubber track and 3 skis, only 2 front skis may steer, driver must sit in aluminum seat mounted inside a roll cage to left of tunnel/track. engine must be located in front of tunnel.
Max width, measured @skis- 52 inches, min. 48 inches.
ABSOLUTELY NO TITANIUM, MAGNESIUM OR CARBON FIBER may be used anywhere on these sleds.
[b]ENGINE[/b]- must use 2000-2006 Polaris 600 twin {model w/64mm stroke}. engine will be mounted backwards but crankshaft rotation cannot be changed.
Only items that may be modified are reeds, exhaust ports and head. Oil pump, thermostat and lettering may be removed.
Must use Outlaw 600 spec stamped twin pipes with no modifications except back pressure inserts may be changed. All ignition components must remain completely stock except cdi may be reprogrammed. Carbs will be the stock 38mm flatslides, restrictors may be specified after testing.
NO AIRBOXES, filters may be used {this will prevent any pressurized intake air}
COOLING System may be radiatir or heat exchangers.
DRIVE CLUTCH- stock Polaris P85, no modifications.
DRIVEN CLUTCH- Any oem stock driven clutch and components, min. weight 10lbs.
DRIVE SHAFT and jackshaft must be min. 1" solid steel, all gears, sprockets and chains must be steel. Chaincase/gearcase must be located on left side of tunnel and all rotation reversal and ratio changing must be done inside this 1 case. driveshaft centerline must be located 16" to 18" from crankshaft centerline.
BRAKES must be mounted on right side of track driveshaft, min. rotor size to be specified later.
brake and throttle must be foot operated.
FRONT suspension must be 4-bar w/trailing arm, radius rods must be parallel and equal length, trailing arm must be min 24 inches long and max caster angle 30 degrees.
Shocks must be Fox or Ride fx without valving adjusters.
SWAY BAR- may use any conventional snowmobile style, no Z-bar or similar.
SKIS must be Wahl wide style w/ no modifications, only two front skis will have carbides, 8 inch x 75 degree likely. {to be specified after testing}.
STEERING must be done with a wheel connected thru rods and bellcranks, no racks or boxes. max wheel rotation 180 degrees total {remember you will be wearing arm restraints}
LEFT REAR SUSPENSION and ski may not extend rearward past the track and may not extend to the left beyond bottom frame rail. Must use either single A-frame or trailing arm w/radius rods suported by single Fox or ride fx coilover shock. No cutting edge may be used on this ski, you may use 1" wide flat hi-fax to prevent ski wear.
TRACK SUSPENSION- may use any conventional slide rail design, no outboard shocks or linkages, may only use 1 shock, max. 8 inch dia rear wheel
TRACK- will likely be Camoplast 116 x 15, NO weld-on hooker plates, we will have a spec stud plate and limit the number of studs after testing. Right edge of track must be inset 8" - 10" from right edge of front ski. {this is to allow adequate room for clutches beside tunnel}
There will be quite extensive rules on chassis and body design but I won't have enough solid info until I finish this first one.
We will have a total weight w/driver as well as a maximum wgt percentage for the front.
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Outlaw 600 - Progress Thread - HRE

Postby prochamp » February 28th, 2011, 5:42 am

Looks Good John
I have a question on tracks though

Why limit it to a 116 Track??
Why not allow the choice of any track with the "R" rating and up to 121" length.
Has there been a issue with these or a concern as to why spec a 116?

As a Camoplast Dealer, I can get the 121" tracks alot easier then the 116 Track and especially if they are spec'd will they run out of supply??

Ice Oval W L Lug Ht. Weight Windows Clip Pitch
9982 Oval 13.5 116 0.73 27.5 full 68/100 2.52 L/R Turn, Soft
9995 Oval 15 116 0.73 30.5 full 68/100 2.52 116" OVAL Race Track
9996 Oval 15 116 0.73 30 full 68/100 2.52 116" OVAL Race Track
9997 Oval 15 121 0.73 36 full 68/100 2.52 L/R Turn, Soft

ICE OVAL & LEMANS SERIES T

Model Dimensions Profile Height Weight Drive Pitch Clip Config. Recommended Use
9812R 15" x 121" 0.525" 33 lbs 2.52" Full Ovals / LeMans
9982R 13.5" x 116" 0.725" 27.5 lbs 2.52" Full Ovals / LeMans
9995R 15" x 116" 0.725" 30.5 lbs 2.52" Full Ovals / LeMans
9997R 15" x 121" 0.725" 36 lbs 2.52" Full Ovals / LeMans



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Outlaw 600 - Progress Thread - HRE

Postby jhooper/HRE » March 1st, 2011, 1:36 am

Prochamp, Good questions. In a perfect world I would choose a spec track that was 15 x 106 with very durable rubber and around .625 profile w/tall clips installed. This track would also be readily available and reasonably priced. Unfortunately it doesn't exist.
I agree that a track more readily available than the 116 Camoplast would be good but unfortunately the 121 inch tracks are heavier and would require that the chassis be built 2.5" longer and probably result in the total weight being 20-25 lbs heavier and bulkier.
Unfortunately If I can't get one of the track companies to at least build these shorter tracks with more durable rubber than the current Camoplast and Kimpex Oval racing tracks the best option will be the standard 15 x 121 Camoplast.
The current tracks made for oval racing are so soft that a couple weeks on a Champ ruins them. No matter which track we choose we wil definately spec just 1 track. One major problem that most of our current classes have is that rules are much too open on expensive components such as tracks and clutches.
I know some will argue that the rules are that way so guys can find parts easier or use up what they have laying around, it sounds good BUT it never works out. No matter the prize money there are ALWAYS going to be a few racers that will spend whatever it takes to gain an advantage and force others to follow or quit. Most racers are working people with limited budgets and they need to be assured that this Outlaw 600 class will not turn into a never ending spending spree like the Champ class. We are not going to allow this scenario to play out AGAIN in any class or rules that I am a part of. The F-500 and limited 500 +600 classes are a perfect example of racers gravitating to a rules system that guarantees the sled you inexpensively build today will still be just as competitive 3 years from now. John H.
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Outlaw 600 - Progress Thread - HRE

Postby jhooper/HRE » March 2nd, 2011, 4:28 am

Friday we will begin construction. There will be at least 2 of us working 10-12 hours a day until it's done. My plan is to make laps 3/26/11 at the latest. Jaws is sending me proto-type pipes today, the tunnel will be here tomorrow, the Wahl skid showed up yesterday, Micro belmont will be shipping gearbox shafts monday, the seat and steering wheel will arrive from Speedway motors on friday. Another shipment of steel and aluminum stock will be here friday and I ordered a 121x15 Camoplast track along with 3 wide skis from Wahl yesterday. I went with this track because it has the harder rubber compound which will last a lot longer on these sleds and it's readily available with tall clips installed. The 03 XC600 sled is still in my truck just waiting to be stripped. John H.
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