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Champ 440: Combined Weight Rule-or not?

Champ 440: Combined Weight Rule-or not?

Postby ice_racer_69 » March 29th, 2007, 2:52 pm

Explain if you are in favor of it or not and give some detailed justification which way. I have a pretty good idea of where alot of people stand Lets try to get an [b]unbiased [/b]response from everyone. Remember, we are figuring out these rules for the future, in hopes of not having to change them.
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Champ 440: Combined Weight Rule-or not?

Postby proton » March 29th, 2007, 3:27 pm

I am in favor of the combined weight rule...when you have a racing formula like the champ class...for the most part the engines these days are making 120-125hp...because of the narrow range of power, weight becomes very critical...The lighter driver has a definite advantage, not only in straight line acceleration and deceleration, but also in cornering.

I have heard how the bigger driver can "manhandle" his sled better, and that may be, but not enough to make up the performance loss of a higher weight.

When you factor in guys the likes of mike Houle...Mike had so many advantages that made up for his weight penalty, His expert tuning ability, his novel ideas in the construction of his sled, AND the fact that he was a GREAT driver made him a deadly force to contend with despite his weight...not every one can Build, Tune, and Race his machine at the level Mike did...so he is the exception

I don't know how much weight the "DRIVER" min. should be, but there needs to be some relief for the heavier driver.

Thanks ice_racer_69 for a forum to discuss this...chow
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Champ 440: Combined Weight Rule-or not?

Postby CoryEwingdeactivated » March 29th, 2007, 4:02 pm

Proton-

That post made no sense. You went from saying that every bit of weight matters on a Champ sled to saying Mike Houle didn't let his size become a disadvantage.

As far as the rule goes, I am against it. I don't believe there really was a weight issue. The more we have monkeyed with things in the past just results in fewer numbers the following year.
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Champ 440: Combined Weight Rule-or not?

Postby Spy-Guy 74 » March 29th, 2007, 4:19 pm

I know Jerry wants to wait with the results of the weighing of the drivers at Eagle River this past year for the ISR meeting in May. I would really like to know the average by throwing out the two heaviest drivers and the two lightest drivers and then giving me the average of the other six drivers. With those figures it would give me something to go by.
As everyone knows my driver weighs between 140 to 145 in street clothes. I do believe his weight gives us an advantage on the straights, but standing a very short 5'9" at the very most gives us a disadvantage in the corners. For a short guy he gets off his sled in the corners more than most, but still gives up alot in the corner as far as lap times compared to some of the bigger fellows.
Jerry can you help me out with this, over the past few years I've wrote quite a few proposals for stock racing for the USSA meetings. I do believe I also submitted one to look ahead and maybe have a combined weight when the Champ
600 became the elite class. With 140-145 horse engines it would play out as less of a factor.
We run a very light chassis, we already have to add 15 pounds of lead under our seat to make 375 weight rule. If you made us add another fifty pounds to make the combined weight I don't know if we would be competitive. I guess we could always make a higher horse power engine as ours makes a honest 112-113 horse and others say they're closer to 125 horse.
If Proton is right and changing the rule will bring out alot more heavier drivers and we have a field closer to 30-35 drivers, then I guess I'm for it. I want ovals to grow more than anything else, so I'll abide by whatever is decided. I do know if the change is made our next sled will have more off set, so we won't have to lean as much and we'll go to more a Jeremy Johnston style of driving. Loose sled, pitch it and square up in the corners. It worked very well for him and it may for us too.

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Champ 440: Combined Weight Rule-or not?

Postby that 31 car » March 29th, 2007, 4:49 pm

Greg:
throw out the top two and the bottom(lightest) two and you have the following.
Sled alone 394.3/ sled with driver 590.6
then your average is 196 for the man, if you leave the sled weight at 565-575 with driver you really don't hurt the light guy.
BUT, if you don't like combined weight period, it's still BS.


Mark, froma earlier post, sled drags do use man and machine. I know you asked from the standpoint of driver moving on the sled, and yes they don't move sideways like oval guys do, but drag guys tell me moving fore and aft equates to the same in their discipline. Don't shoot the messange ok, I'm stil a 350 sled weight guy, remember.
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Champ 440: Combined Weight Rule-or not?

Postby champ27 » March 29th, 2007, 5:36 pm

How do they do it in motocross, and superbike racing? Or sno-cross?

As far as im concerned there shouldnt be a weight rule at all. That would solve the issue. I for one am a heavy driver and if i have to spend more money to save weight then thats my penalty for being heavy. If "cost" becomes back in discussion i think its bs. The existing weight rule sure the hell hasnt saved me or anyone else any money. All it does is let you strengthen weak areas of your chassis and spend huge money on titanium and everything else to get back down to the 375# rule. Im sure most of the top teams can vouch for that. Your never going to stop a team that has large resources spend money period!

And if they are going to keep the weight rule, then add a combined driver and chassis weight just lower the chassis weight to 350. Then as i explained above the lighter driver wouldnt have to spend as much to lighten his chassis.

Another view is this, just like Jerry mentioned in the above post 196 pounds is the average driver weight. Out East here minus Jacques 200 lbs is the average. So how much would it really hurt a small guy.
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Champ 440: Combined Weight Rule-or not?

Postby Spiders & Snakes » March 30th, 2007, 2:46 am

My vote is no combined weight rule. I don't think there is a problem. The light guys are not winning all the races. After watching and seeing the results from this past season I would say the taller heavier guys won more races than the rest. I agree with Spy height could be a bigger advantage than less weight. I don't want to see more rules that will probably be changed later. If there is a deffinet problem than I would be for it but I don't see it. Like Andy said the fast guys will always be fast nomatter what the rules are. The 375 lb rule did nothing for the sport. Sleds are still expensive and all the high priced materials are still being used, you just put the weight where you want it. Like I have said in the past if weight is such an issue how come the heavier guys sled's don't come in closer to that 375 weight. The answer is right there they aren't concerned about it. Where does this end, I guess will have to "weight" and see but you can bet after next year the short guys will be looking for some kind of a fairness rule. We don't need anymore rules right now, we need more racers and fans. Tom Kallock
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Champ 440: Combined Weight Rule-or not?

Postby AHF928 » March 30th, 2007, 2:47 am

Our team is 100% against this rule. We have had to set up sleds over the years for drivers ranging from 65lbs(son as a junior on a full sized Indy) 110lbs (wife on stock Indy) 220lbs (brother on a F500). making a sled trun good lap times with suspension tuning is way easier with a driver that weighs more. I'm not talking a 300lb driver, but a real light driver 125 to 150 lbs. It takes a lot of time to get the shocks and springs to even work with them on it.

Perfect driver would be 180 lbs, 5'9" tall. 48" long right arm, 12" left arm with no elbow, left leg 12" long, right leg 36" long. their weight would be 90% in their left butt cheek. Oh and a very small aero dynamic head.
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Champ 440: Combined Weight Rule-or not?

Postby Jamon » March 30th, 2007, 3:19 am

The only place that make sense to have combined weight is in 6.5hp Gokarts and maybe in kittycat were there is not enough hp.
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Champ 440: Combined Weight Rule-or not?

Postby prochamp » March 30th, 2007, 3:25 am

Why a weight rule now again??

Lower cost to build = more sleds???
Never believe it. The overall cost of racing sleds,is a bigger, issue not the $$$ spent to build the sled.

Are you looking at the weight issue to tighten up the field for better show.

The champ class still does not have an over abundance of entries. If you want to keep the cost down, throw out the use of exotic metals,ect. NO titanium bolts, or shafts, magnesium tunnels and parts.

DO you really feel 25 lbs difference in the sled weight,is going to bring more entries in CHAMP? Why mess with the sleds you currently have racing?

You'll get more Drivers,Teams, when the cost of getting to and from the race,lodging, and weekly exspense is less! Not 25 lbs difference in the chassis.

As far as driver weight,listen to what some of the most knowledagble are trying to tell you. JV for one has been around longer then anyone, and been as fast as anyone,yet he says that he feels the lighter driver has some disadvantage. When you start penalizing a racer for weight issues, especially the Driver, where is the gain here seen, ENTRIES or on track competition.

Isn't the real need for more entires, to put on a better show? Get the entries up, and the racing will get better on the track.

Question really is where has the interest gone that is driving racers to or away from the sport.

RACERS cant put the sport ahead of there own agenda 90% of the time. Question for Everyone that responds mostly here, do you really look at these rule changes first, for the betterment of the racing or first look at how if will effect you and your effort, and base your judgment first leaning on that, a little more then the sports benefit!


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