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Outlaw 600 - Progress Thread - HRE

Outlaw 600 - Progress Thread - HRE

Postby PDRacing » April 4th, 2011, 4:02 pm

[quote=jhooper/HRE]
I know a lot of people will never like this concept but there is no good reason to criticize it unless you are just scared that this will eliminate other current classes or you see this as the final nail in the coffin of the ANTIQUE TWIN TRACK SLEDS.
[/quote]
I think it's a great a concept, since some good old boys can just welder up in the old shop, barn whatever.

Just like good Old fashion Stock cars!

Antique = OLD FASHION

Pot calling the Kettle Black, John!
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Outlaw 600 - Progress Thread - HRE

Postby Ovals Forever » April 4th, 2011, 5:17 pm

[quote=jhooper/HRE]Nagelbros and any other twin track lovers,
Just because the double A-frame is newer does not mean it is better. The 4 bar/trailing arm front end is lighter, simpler and just as fast in ice oval racing. If we had used double A-frames this sled would have been 10 inches longer and 20-30 lbs heavier with no real advantage so how is this hi-tech?
I know this one looks a lot like a small race car but you could have a hood made that looks like a sled only bigger if thats what you like.
I know a lot of people will never like this concept but there is no good reason to criticize it unless you are just scared that this will eliminate other current classes or you see this as the final nail in the coffin of the ANTIQUE TWIN TRACK SLEDS.
This outlaw sled is not intended to replace any current classes or the old twin track sled, it is simply a race machine designed to attract a much larger group of racers that cannot or won't race a normal ice oval sled. John H.[/quote]


I would like to add to this, when one of you smart guys that don't have a big enough set of nuts to put your name on here have 1% of the racing resume John Hooper has as a sled and engine builder you can question him, until then go back under the rock you came out of and dream about twin tracks, as for the rest of us we are going to watch this new sled put this sport back on the map where it used to be.
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Outlaw 600 - Progress Thread - HRE

Postby PDRacing » April 4th, 2011, 6:39 pm

[quote=Ovals Forever][quote=jhooper/HRE]simply a race machine designed to attract a much larger group of racers that cannot or won't race a normal ice oval sled. John H.[/quote]

watch this new sled put this sport back on the map where it used to be.[/quote]

Ovals, the whole point you guys miss is the Sled isn't the problem with the sport the lack of professionally organized promotion as a group, set standards and overall production of the sport that has hurt it.

A larger group of racers does not fix the sport.

As John has said in his own words, this is a very "Simple race machine".

Heck anybody with a welder can build, not alot of technology, if any, in it. How it is marketable to sponsors? What's exciting about it?
I'm not sure but time will tell I guess, Once some sort of venue is lined up.
I'm sure they have done their general consumer reviews, and marketing homework.

Personally I still like the the looks of Gille's Cockpit sled better in 1973. Looked more like a race car.
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Outlaw 600 - Progress Thread - HRE

Postby tp176 » April 4th, 2011, 11:18 pm

proton,

Yes, all parts will be available.

Whether anyone thinks a fire supression system is needed - we will use one on all outlaws we produce. I have seen the results of only a few seconds in a fire. Our first responders are good at what they do on the EPT but it will still take precious moments to get to them.

The idea is not only to get more drivers but to get more spectators in the stands. The potential sponsors will also have a place on the machine to finally put a decent size logo - try that on our current sleds!

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Outlaw 600 - Progress Thread - HRE

Postby jhooper/HRE » April 5th, 2011, 1:09 am

PDracing,
I understand your point BUT you are living in fantasy land if you really think that suddenly lots of well funded exotic race teams are going to magicly appear racing Champ sleds. You need to deal with the reality that this sport is on life support and beating to death the same old ideas is not going to get it done. Just because you have been lucky enough to land a good sponsor does not mean that it's possible for all. I have been involved in chasing sponsors for this sport for 30 years and the FIRST question most big corporations ask is "How many spectators do you race in front of?" Maybe Canadians are different but in the USA big corps. don't care a lot if you are racing lawn mowers or F1 it's all about "advertising dollars spent per potential customer". You won't be forced to race one of these so why are you so worried? There will certainly be more racers and spectators at all the tracks because of this Outlaw sled so your sponsor will be pleased. And actually your Champ sled is just as simple as this sled, maybe less advanced, but thats just my opinion.
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Outlaw 600 - Progress Thread - HRE

Postby Flatout » April 5th, 2011, 2:52 am

Lets not turn this thread into another twintrack debate/argument. This concept is not for everyone and will not affect the current champ 440 base. It will bring a whole new demographic to the sport that being the legend car, stock car group. It will inject a whole lot of cash at the gate for the promoter and will generate a bunch of interest from current fans as well. I compare this to the ski hills when the snowboard first came out. There were a ton of skeptics but it didnt stop skiers from skiing and it did bring a whole new group to the hill. We need bums in the stands to make our sport survive. Wether you like it or not this idea will bring them in. Personally I think they are not a snowmobile but they are definitely cool. The rules are made to keep the costs down which is a good thing. Something that we should have had in Champ. As far as comparable technology goes the only difference is the A arm front end and the absence of exotic (expensive) metals. Trailing arms allow more room for the drivers feet. A arms are only marginally better than trailing arms because they do not change caster throughout their travel range. I will not be building one this year but if it takes off like I think it will I will build one and I will get behind the wheel!
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Outlaw 600 - Progress Thread - HRE

Postby proton » April 5th, 2011, 3:20 am

Its too bad champ rules are frozen for so long because there may not be enough guys left in 2015 or however long the rule are frozen to support the class

Howard is right, we need to do away with alot the expense in champ...standard clutches, tracks(121), shafts and shox would be a good start, continuing with no hookers with max # of studs and limit carbide length would make it easier to drive and slow them down some....limited 500 is on the right track, just need a modified engine.

I really like the 121 track with a spec # of studs and 6" of carbide for the outlaw 600, it not only reduces the cost tremendously but the ease of driving will have great appeal to potential drivers.
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Outlaw 600 - Progress Thread - HRE

Postby PDRacing » April 5th, 2011, 3:28 am

[quote=jhooper/HRE]PDracing,ust because you have been lucky enough to land a good sponsor does not mean that it's possible for all. I have been involved in chasing sponsors for this sport for 30 years and the FIRST question most big corporations ask is "How many spectators do you race in front of?"

You won't be forced to race one of these so why are you so worried? There will certainly be more racers and spectators at all the tracks because of this Outlaw sled so your sponsor will be pleased
John H.[/quote]

First off John,
getting a good sponsor isn't LUCK it's called Working at it
and developing a good business case / proposal.
In my business I don't "chase them" I have had the pleasure of working with them including the 2nd richest corp in the World for 25 years, Panasoinc, as well as a good association with Toyota, KonicaMinolta, Labbatt's, Molson's,.... I understand what they look for.

My sponsor, nor most Corps, aren't concerned about the actual Race, this is what you don't get. The Fans at the track aren't the core, they need media, television teams at trade shows etc. It's a package you sell, with racing as the principal theme. Once again it needs be a professional business package. Not seat of your pants!

and Why am I worried you ask? Cause as one editor already has said, this becomes a sideshow and detracts from the core sport. The core sport is the product I am selling.

Anyway as Howie said it's not a debate thread, I will stay off this thread out of respect.

Oh and speaking of F1 John, my Hotel package and Tickets showed up yesterday for Montreal F1, courtesy of a Corp.

Guess that's just LUCK!!!:h
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Outlaw 600 - Progress Thread - HRE

Postby jhooper/HRE » April 5th, 2011, 3:51 am

Rich,
Now I understand, you have connections, thats about the only way YOU could have landed SERIOUS support with your record in a sport on the decline with small crowds and little media coverage. I just realized that you actually beleive that Champ is a more professional show than the Outlaw class will be, you are certainly in the minority. The fans will let us know next season.
I fully agree that a big dollar flashy show would attract attention but as I have said many times "It's just a fantasy in our sport under the current structure". If you have enough connections to land a huge deal to pump large amounts of cash into a little sport like ours THEN I will shake your hand. Until then your negative approach is just adding to the demise of our sport. Sincerely, John Hooper
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Outlaw 600 - Progress Thread - HRE

Postby PDRacing » April 5th, 2011, 4:49 am

See John we actually agree on something !! :)

Your right Champ is not being presented professionally enough,
and we need to bring the standards up.

We are on the same page!

I have no doubt your Outlaws will look good. But what about the other guys who build them?

and I ask you this why haven't the associations forced higher standards for the existing premier class, so advertisers / sponsors are proud to associate their name with it. If the rules aren't in place and maintained then your Outlaw Class will suffer the same fate.

Unfortunately, in the interim you have gone and made this personal attack, now that's negative.


cheers,
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