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The future of Champ

Re: The future of Champ

Postby PDRacing » March 1st, 2014, 11:18 am

Last edited by PDRacing on March 2nd, 2014, 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The future of Champ

Postby Scheer22 » March 1st, 2014, 7:30 pm

After Briefly reading over the pages on here and not being around the sport for Three years I am just going off past knowledge here. Or Experience.

Yes my father didn't do everything right before people start throwing rocks in a glass house, but he did have one thing down and that was safety. Overall if he could of he would of raced on LAKES every race. Why?? If groves or lines got bad you could easily change it out, or push track out, or hell even if need be make a new track. No walls, plenty of run off room, and overall besides having to make sure lake froze enough you always had plenty of room to play. Yes they didn't have banked corners, or stadium seating but for the drivers and their faimlies they were the SAFEST tracks around. Jerry Dillion knew that and my father followed his lead. I personally think if you truly ask and think about it SPEED isn't the issue, overall what is the difference if you hit a wall at 102 vs 110 nothing. I think the BIG picture here is and please don't take this the wrong way is the tracks, and where these incidents are happening at ( seems over and over again year after year) at the same venues mostly out east. Again not trying to point fingers here, but maybe they need to look at the issues at hand and not try and take the rest of the class/sport to change when all the rule changes in the world wouldn't fix the underlying issue of the main cause.

Again been out of it for a few years, but I still hear and read the same tracks causing the same problem.

Nick Scheer
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Re: The future of Champ

Postby TDC » March 1st, 2014, 7:53 pm

Kineticenergyvsspeed.jpg (40.17 KiB) Viewed 1444 times
While a couple MPH isn't the difference between safe and dangerous, there is a difference. I think most agree lakes are safer, but they don't get the same attendance. Just a thought, maybe some company or organization involved in things like race safety or crash analysis could be persuaded to offer their expertise in the form of sponsorship?
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Re: The future of Champ

Postby Petawawarace » March 1st, 2014, 8:03 pm

TDC has posted some very useful information. That right there is the reason F500 crashes are not anywhere near as bad as champ. The difference between 75 and 90 mph impact speeds is over 35% more. That's huge. For those of you saying the extra little bit of speed doesn't mean much your wrong
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Re: The future of Champ

Postby Ovals Forever » March 1st, 2014, 9:05 pm

I think we would all rather crash at 80 then 105

But this argument is pointless, you would rather play with a Rattle snake then a King Cobra to but guess what, play with either one long enough and you will be bit the Cobra may be the most lethal but the at right time or place the Rattle Snake will kill you to.

Show Tony Stewart, Tony Kanaan, Connie Kalitta, or John Force that chart and tell them they really need to restrict there cars because it would be much safer if they slowed them down and see what they tell you. And don't say yea but because they have stared death in the eye and have seen there own team mates and son killed doing what they do.
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Re: The future of Champ

Postby Spy-Guy 74 » March 1st, 2014, 9:46 pm

Daren, I myself don't have a problem if the champs run 105 mph on the very large tracks. Anything higher is a problem to me, and is not required to put on a great show. Trust me race fans can't tell the difference between 95 and 103 if all the sleds are going the same speed.

When we had Formula 600 and 38 flatsides speeds were getting to say 113, even heard of one fellow getting 117 mph in Beausejour. At this time those sleds would be approaching 122 miles per hour if were left unchecked. Those speeds are insane, trust me ice ovals would have been a thing of the past if we would have continued down that path.

Yes John and Tony are going much faster, but trust me Tony is in a much safer chassis and John does not turn corners. Both do quite well in there field of expertise, but you're not comparing apples to apples. These sleds are going up to 105 mph in snow storm visabilty at times, it's just so much different then other forms of racing.

You like Sprint car racing, lets say the big boys are in town with the 410's and it's dark out. I'm running the light switch, every lap I turn the lights out three to four times for a second each time. Trust me there will be some wrecks and many others with a large lump in there throat. When I compare things I like it apples to apples
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Re: The future of Champ

Postby fast dad » March 2nd, 2014, 8:46 am

I understand, more than most,everyone has there own opinion. In regards to Champ racing being to expensive, it can be used for a excuse more than anything. Talent is more the issue, and the amount of good tuners out there. You will always have the ones who will spend spend more than others, why??? because they can and will in any class, I have always hated the excuse that they spend more money thats why they win!!! I will promise you they guy who wins works the hardest and spends the money the right way. Almost what our society has turned into, not fair someone has more than me!!!

As far as making the sleds more stock there would be more racers? F 500 is a beginner class and always will be, that why there are more entries. Which is a great thing, good for racing. What would happen if all the Champ guys raced F500 because they cost less??? I think the class would lose many entries! Why? (Jordon Wahl raced it for a few years, what was the outcome?) They love to tinker and make things go faster, they need to be pushed to make things better and faster. You make Champ racing a glorified F 500 it will dye in 2 years...I have sat in the ISR meetings and listened to Champ drivers and teams, motor builders say they will not race if they go to STOCK 600 motors!!! Why?? They don't want to race a STOCK class!! This is why the 440 Fully Modified motor will be in the rules for many more years.

Stock classes have their place and work great for some, but the elite in all forms of racing need to be challenged and love going faster by working hard and creating new and better parts,better chassis,better clutch set ups, better shocks, better drive lines, on the edge jetting, ignition timing, exotic oils, lighter stronger parts,ect.

Leave champ racing alone, and let some of the kids get better that are racing F500, learn more about tuning and have the opportunity to one day race against the best...All racing in all forms have been on the down turn at one point or another. The racing is still great and close.

Again just my opinion..

[b]fast dad[/b]
fast dad
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Re: The future of Champ

Postby jhooper/HRE » March 2nd, 2014, 9:45 am

I agree with most of your opinions and I certainly don't want to see our premier class become a low-tech spec. class.
You are correct that most current Champ teams enjoy the freedom to design/build a better machine than the next guy BUT items that cost a ton of $$$ and don't last certainly need to be eliminated to help everyones race budget.
We both know that the same teams ALWAYS run up front regardless of the rules because of talent and intelligence.
We can reduce costs considerably without limiting creativeness by simply eliminating the "throw away" soft rubber tracks and "fast wearing" titanium studs.

I have designed/built a lot of the latest innovations you see in Champ racing and I will take the blame for the tracks, it was my idea {with help from George Samson} to have these 106" soft rubber tracks made to begin with, they are currently legal BUT should have been outlawed years ago.
Before these "throw away tracks" We bought a track for less than $500 and they would last 2 or 3 seasons, now 1 track with clips is around $1200 and you need at least 2 for each season, that's 8-10 times the cost with no benefit to the quality of the racing AND they are less safe because the really soft rubber wipers allow for much deeper stud penetration into whatever they run over.
Titanium studs cost around $8 each and last less than half as long as steel studs, so our cost of studs for a season went from aprox. $700 to over $5,000, again with no benefit to the quality of racing.
Yes, some of the guys are using slide lube that costs $100 per gallon and is a small advantage {we tested it}. It is not unusual to use +5 gals in a weekend {$5,000+ per season} and we don't even know if this stuff is toxic.
These are the kind of items that can be eliminated without effecting the show or handicapping the creative guys.
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Re: The future of Champ

Postby proton » March 2nd, 2014, 12:17 pm

I'm in agreement 100% w/J Hooper...preach it brother.
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Re: The future of Champ

Postby Champdad440 » March 2nd, 2014, 1:54 pm

We raced since the free air leaf spring days until Roberval 2008. My son crashed hard there...we retired.

Safety was a huge concern but not why we threw in the towel.

$$$ was the number one reason...Like John said trying to stay cutting edge was just beyond most part time teams.
Second was just that...most of us were part time...part time means to us...race weekends work during the week. If you don't have at least some team members that can test and improve during the actual season you will only be as good as you start the year. You may fine tune, but you wont really get better.

Safety was and will always be a big concern, but racing is dangerous, always was always will be.

If you look at the worst injuries, at least here in the east they were not in the champ class. Herizig at Valcourt comes to mind.

Safer tracks will help...just the removal of frozen bales helps a lot. Figuring out the age old snow dust problem would be huge.

Drop all the super expensive "little things"...tracks, titanium studs, on board computers, and some of us may come back.

Limit traction and carbide length and the speeds will drop, drivers will adapt. Just my opinion...
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