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Growing the Champ class

Re: Growing the Champ class

Postby Spy-Guy 74 » March 23rd, 2015, 2:15 pm

I could be wrong but my understanding the champ rules were looked at last year and sort or frozen for another four or five years. I maybe wrong though.

For the folks that would like to see it go to a stock 600 engine, do you feel the numbers of entries will increase because of the chang?. Myself I'm not sure, I think you may gain a few, but at the same time lose a few too. I will tell you the people that run up front will still run up front even if you would make the change. I think you would make a few guys quite mad for the motor programs they have invested in to be able to run up front in Champ 440. At the same time it would make them worth very little with a change like that.

The fellows out east tried this very class your talking about and really did not see any huge numbers from it. I'm not sure if they still run the class at this time either. A couple of guys ran them in the mid-west at Eagle River, if my memory is correct the speeds were faster than the champ sleds.

In the end all you'd have is some fellows with blue printed engines, trust me there cylinders would be so matched it would make your head spin trying to find a pair like that. Other costs would come into the equation too, to be able to have the hot motor so to speak. The tech guy will be busier for sure

I could be wrong, but to me I really don't see many more getting into the class with that sort of change. I'm not saying there are not other things that could be looked at to make Champ class better for all. At one time I to believe the Deckers could have gotten this change if they wanted, today I'm not sure if they have the means to get it done either. My last comment is no dis respect towards them either, just what I believe. Last year you couldn't even get brushes on the skis, to me a motor change in the class is most likely not in the works either
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Re: Growing the Champ class

Postby proton » March 23rd, 2015, 2:43 pm

My stock 600 comment was an example only. ... I personally agree with spy-guy.
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Re: Growing the Champ class

Postby diskvalve » March 23rd, 2015, 2:50 pm

The EPT Factory 600 class had Wye pipes and single exhaust pipes and a few other restrictions.. I think 600 stock cylinders and 34 mm carbs in conjunction with any other engine mods in Champ chassis would work fine . The F-500 Cylinders are all stock and that class is thriving..I don't think policing current 600 stock cylinders would be even as hard as 30 plus year old mono block cylinders.. I am just putting an idea out there that might be a viable way in upcoming years to generate new interest and allow modern 600 cc motors that are in the manufacturers present lineup..
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Re: Growing the Champ class

Postby Spy-Guy 74 » March 23rd, 2015, 3:58 pm

diskvalve I'm not saying it couldn't be done, I'm just wondering if it would help the over all program of Champ Class. If it doesn't then I don't see the reason for a change. The EPT Pro 600's had faster lap times in Eagle with a stock y pipe and sort of a spec pipe if my memory is correct.

Most times now what's brought up is to make the class better is safety. With 600's with a open y pipe and a set of hand built pipes speeds should increase fairly sizable. My thinking on larger tracks say 5 to 7 miles per hour after a couple of years with a program like that. Throw in snowdust and I feel we'd be making a class with much more danger involved. To me that's going backwards in away. The torque and speeds the 440's are putting out now to me is sort of the limits the class can really handle to be viable.

If something could be changed to make say a field of four heats of six drivers each weekend everywhere I'd be all for it. At this time if something was to change, I'd lean more toward what Mr. Hooper was offering with his opening post. Others may differ but that's my view
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Re: Growing the Champ class

Postby fast dad » March 23rd, 2015, 5:12 pm

Spy you are absolutely correct...the sleds would be faster even with stock pipe and stock motor, so much more torque with a 600...You would see speeds at least 5-7 MPH...There is not easy solution.. Adding another class will take entries away more than grow entries..Right now Champ 440 works great, is it expensive YEP...You will always have the Roger Penske type team that wins the majority of the races, because they work the hardest and have the biggest budgets just a way of life...But Like Spy said the same guys would be winning no matter what the rules are...All we can do is accept it for what it is a great class and hope that some younger riders come along just as the current riders did....Tuners are the real issue I feel...Cardell won with a lower budget team with old parts so it can be done...

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Re: Growing the Champ class

Postby roofies » March 23rd, 2015, 5:35 pm

Classes should be eliminated not added! Look at supercross, 250 and 450 with different skill levels and lots of entries. Classes with low entries should be gone and more laps for everyone else.
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Re: Growing the Champ class

Postby diskvalve » March 23rd, 2015, 5:50 pm

In the east the CPT circuit has a combo class where champs and Factory 600 sleds compete head to head. This season the Champ 440 sleds were usually winning. Sabrina Blanchet on her 440 Champ sled was the points champion in this Combo class and had many wins ..All I am saying is ; I think we need to find a way to get the current crop of 600s as the premier class to keep spectator and possibly even some OEM interest . Most of the snowmobilers I know are a bit surprised when I describe the top Pro-Champ class as being only 440 cc.. Almost no one rides a machine under 500 cc anymore and they seem unimpressed with the 440s..
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Re: Growing the Champ class

Postby proton » March 23rd, 2015, 8:45 pm

With respect fast dad.....if champ was working great as you say, we wouldn't be talking about this subject over and over.

The fact of the matter is, there are smaller teams who would like to try champ but the cost is discouraging them. there are things that can be done that will not change the face of champ 440 while at the same time making it a bit more appealing to some

I think J Hooper has a great plan to involve MORE teams. Those who still want to spend $5000 putting ti studs in their $1200 tracks every 3 event's can still do it. But let's not make everyone else waist that kind of money when its not necessary for a good show.
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Re: Growing the Champ class

Postby Flatout » March 23rd, 2015, 9:33 pm

Please don't screw with the rules or make more classes! The reality is that champ is and always will be an expensive class to compete in and to compete at the top level it takes lots of money talent equipment and luck.. To encourage more participation in this class there needs to be more money as a payout to the lower finishing sleds. It is very discouraging to go home with nothing after missing the big show by one position. Perhaps offering a "B" main purse of lets say $500 ($250-$150-$100).The top 8 or 10 make the A main and the rest make the B main (LCQ). The top two in the B have the option of forfeiting their money to run the A main. The b main purse is paid out down the line. This way even the lower teams have a chance at some purse even if it is only gas money. If there are too few sleds for an LCQ the promoter pays down 3 more places in the A main.

Just a thought!
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Re: Growing the Champ class

Postby tp176 » March 24th, 2015, 5:44 am

Deja vu all over again!

The Factory 600 class was doomed as soon as the stock pipe rule and rev limiter was altered. Bullsh%#! you cant fit the pipe in the chassis.

Champ does need changes, no question. Very simply, you may not be able to change the rules but you can abondon the class at any time!

TJ, no doubt that the best will rise to the top but I can assure you that there are some very capable tuners and owners that would get back in with reduced costs.

We have beat the spec fuel rule to death and without a good business proposition to a major fuel company that gives them some ROI it is a tough sell as well as a logistical nightmare.

History is doomed to repeat itself if we don't study it - MUCH of the discussion is a cut and paste of the past.

Jerry?

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